Orban meets Putin for peace talks

[Estro Felino]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

 

[Stevicus]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

I think much of it will depend on the public's war weariness. If a war goes on for years on end with no end and no victory in sight, then eventually people will want it to stop - or at least, they won't be as enthusiastic about supporting it anymore. But they keep putting out mixed messages, claiming that Ukraine is desperate for aid but also saying that Russia is in bad shape and on the verge of defeat.

The only operative question we need to ask here is: Does Ukraine stand any realistic chance of achieving their military objectives and winning this war?

So, I asked my AI "Co-Pilot" that question, and here was the answer:

The situation in the Ukraine-Russia War is complex and fluid, with many factors influencing the outcome. Here’s what some sources say:

• Ukraine’s war aims have grown from survival to the recovery of all territory lost to Russia since 20141. However, a strategic assessment in 2024 concluded that Russia has the upper hand, and Ukraine has limited prospects for overturning Russian territorial annexations and troop reinforcements2.
• A report from the Royal United Services Institute outlines Russia’s intent and capacity, suggesting that Russia still maintains the strategic objective of bringing about the subjugation of Ukraine3.
• An article on POLITICO suggests that Ukraine’s strategy for 2024 is to survive, with the hope of winning in 20254. It mentions that Ukraine’s soldiers are exhausted and its military is running short of artillery ammunition and air defense rockets4.
• The former commander of the UK’s Joint Forces Command has warned that Ukraine could face defeat by Russia in 20245.

It’s important to note that these assessments are based on the situation as of 2024, and the situation may have changed since then. The outcome of the conflict will likely depend on a variety of factors, including international support for Ukraine, the resilience of the Ukrainian military and people, and the strategies employed by both sides. Please check the most recent sources for the latest information.

Ukraine could win if the West decides to intervene directly on their side. The combined forces of the U.S. and Europe (along with Japan on Russia's eastern frontiers) could conceivably defeat the Russians. Even if it goes nuclear, there's a possibility that the Russian nuclear forces may be so poorly-maintained that they may not be effective. But my sense is that public opinion in most of these countries goes strongly against directly going to war with Russia.

Also, if the West chooses to attack Russia, there's a possibility that China may come in on the Russians' side - or they might use the distraction to grab Taiwan. Moreover, if the West gets bogged down in Russia, there will be fewer resources available to carry out the West's Middle Eastern activities, so that region may erupt into even further conflict and chaos. The nations of South Asia, Africa, and Latin America may choose sides.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think much of it will depend on the public's war weariness. If a war goes on for years on end with no end and no victory in sight, then eventually people will want it to stop - or at least, they won't be as enthusiastic about supporting it anymore. But they keep putting out mixed messages, claiming that Ukraine is desperate for aid but also saying that Russia is in bad shape and on the verge of defeat.

Honestly I am a bit shocked by the fact that the American people believe every single thing the media tell them.

Ukraine could win if the West decides to intervene directly on their side. The combined forces of the U.S. and Europe (along with Japan on Russia's eastern frontiers) could conceivably defeat the Russians. Even if it goes nuclear, there's a possibility that the Russian nuclear forces may be so poorly-maintained that they may not be effective. But my sense is that public opinion in most of these countries goes strongly against directly going to war with Russia.

Honestly I thought we the West had evolved from the warlike stage (which I call the animal stage).
I thought that wars nowadays were only economic wars, embargoes, commercial wars.

And then I thought of all those capitalists greedy for billions of dollars gained through sale of warfare...and I connected the dots.
I mean...they need to create wars artificially. To sell weapons to countries.

By the way, here in Europe they know very well that if the governments decided to enter the war, the next day there would be revolutions in every single European country.
Also because it's explicitly forbidden in our constitution.
But...those revolutions would be a chance to destroy the European Union, so maybe it would be a win for us.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Magic Man
I am interested in your opinion.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

Sorry @Estro Felino . From your own cited article, it seems that Orban has been, and continues to be a shill for dictators and despots, like Putin has shown himself to be.

"European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

Orban, who has angered EU and Ukrainian officials with his regular pro-Russia comments and policies, claimed he was in Moscow to help settle the war between Russia and Ukraine, but Western and Ukrainian officials have blasted the trip, insisting he doesn't speak for Brussels or Kyiv.

"In Moscow, Viktor Orban in no way represents the EU or the EU's positions," said Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas, who has been designated to become the EU's next foreign affairs representative.

"He is exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion. The EU is united, clearly behind Ukraine and against Russian aggression,” she said.

Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda echoed her comments. The Baltic nations Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia have all expressed strong support of Ukraine following Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022.

"If you truly seek peace, you don't shake hands with a bloody dictator, you put all your efforts to support Ukraine," Nauseda wrote on X."

----

"After word leaked on July 4 of Orban's planned visit, European Council President Charles Michel said "the EU rotating presidency has no mandate to engage with Russia on behalf of the EU."

"The European Council is clear: Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine is the victim. No discussions about Ukraine can take place without Ukraine," Michel added."​

It would seem that Orban hopes to $$profit$$ from $deals$ with the warmonger Putin. What a pathetic little sheep.


Edit: We. All. Want. Peace.
And for the Ukraine and the warmongering Putin wielding the lives of his people as soldiers to invade the Ukraine, the only singular chance for it STARTS with absolute withdrawal of all Russian forces from the internationally accepted borders of the nation of Ukraine.

Period.

When the warmonger Putin (let's add "child-killer" to that after Putin's recent intentional and targeted attack on Ukraine's largest pediatric hospital) renounces all of his spurious claims to all lands west of Russia; THEN we can sit at the peace table and begin to discuss terms for Russia's repayment of damages and return of all POWs.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sorry @Estro Felino . From your own cited article, it seems that Orban has been, and continues to be a shill for dictators and despots, like Putin has shown himself to be.

"European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

Orban, who has angered EU and Ukrainian officials with his regular pro-Russia comments and policies, claimed he was in Moscow to help settle the war between Russia and Ukraine, but Western and Ukrainian officials have blasted the trip, insisting he doesn't speak for Brussels or Kyiv.

"In Moscow, Viktor Orban in no way represents the EU or the EU's positions," said Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas, who has been designated to become the EU's next foreign affairs representative.

"He is exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion. The EU is united, clearly behind Ukraine and against Russian aggression,” she said.

Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda echoed her comments. The Baltic nations Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia have all expressed strong support of Ukraine following Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022.

"If you truly seek peace, you don't shake hands with a bloody dictator, you put all your efforts to support Ukraine," Nauseda wrote on X."

----

"After word leaked on July 4 of Orban's planned visit, European Council President Charles Michel said "the EU rotating presidency has no mandate to engage with Russia on behalf of the EU."

"The European Council is clear: Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine is the victim. No discussions about Ukraine can take place without Ukraine," Michel added."​

It would seem that Orban hopes to $$profit$$ from $deals$ with the warmonger Putin. What a pathetic little sheep.

What unelected technocrats say is worthless.
Orban was elected so he has legitimacy.

 

[Magic Man]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

Two dictators. This image irritates anyone who values democracy and freedom.

If this leads to "peace", that could only mean disaster for democracy, freedom and lack of dictatorships. For Putin and Orban "peace" would be to take over everything else, or at least have everyone be subservient to them or on the same page with them as far as authoritarianism goes.

What's sad to me is to see the effects of propaganda, to see how people like you truly buy fully into it.

 

[Magic Man]

What unelected technocrats say is worthless.
Orban was elected so he has legitimacy.

Oh, right, just like Zelenskyy, right?

 

[Magic Man]

Honestly I am a bit shocked by the fact that the American people believe every single thing the media tell them.

Says the person who believes everything Putin's propaganda tells her.

Honestly I thought we the West had evolved from the warlike stage (which I call the animal stage).
I thought that wars nowadays were only economic wars, embargoes, commercial wars.

Let's go ahead and clarify here:

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Russia is the warmonger here. Putin is the warmonger.

All the West is doing is supporting Ukraine against an invasion by a warmonger.

If you were truly against warmongers, you would be criticizing Putin and Russia, not the west. But we know it's not actually about warmongers for you. You like warmongering, as long as it's from someone you blindly support. You only dislike it when it's someone you're biased against.

 

[Magic Man]

What unelected technocrats say is worthless.

In other words: I don't like what they say, so I am going to ignore and dismiss it, even though it's accurate and legitimate.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

What unelected technocrats say is worthless.
Orban was elected so he has legitimacy.

He represents a rotating schedule of national leaders in the temporary role as the EU Pres. Mainly a figurehead post, with all of the power in a multinational representative body of multiple voting nations.
As your article clearly notes, the actual voters (all the other nations, who have power (not Orban)), his actions only sow confusion and frustration in the people of Europe, who all want Putin out of the Ukraine that he unilaterally invaded.

 

[Estro Felino]

Two dictators. This image irritates anyone who values democracy and freedom.

I understand your point about Putin.
But what Orban did wrong to be called dictator by you?

If this leads to "peace", that could only mean disaster for democracy, freedom and lack of dictatorships. For Putin and Orban "peace" would be to take over everything else, or at least have everyone be subservient to them or on the same page with them as far as authoritarianism goes.

I mean...kicking the elitist cabal of warmongers out of Europe is what people like us surely dream of.

What's sad to me is to see the effects of propaganda, to see how people like you truly buy fully into it.

With all due respect...I really like debating with you...but since you are from the US, how can you be so sure about what goes on in Europe?
I mean, I speak 6 European languages, 5 of which fluently...so...I guess I know Europe, also because I live here.

I guess I am wondering whether it's Americans who live under a glass dome, and brainwashed by national media about Europe?

 

[Estro Felino]

Says the person who believes everything Putin's propaganda tells her.

Let's go ahead and clarify here:

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Russia is the warmonger here. Putin is the warmonger.

All the West is doing is supporting Ukraine against an invasion by a warmonger.

If you were truly against warmongers, you would be criticizing Putin and Russia, not the west. But we know it's not actually about warmongers for you. You like warmongering, as long as it's from someone you blindly support. You only dislike it when it's someone you're biased against.

I must have repeated it 1000 times.
I cannot criticize what Russia did in Donbas.
Because it's exactly what the United States did in Kosovo.
USA invaded Serbia to save Kosovar separatists from persecution.

That's exactly what Russia has been doing.
The perpetrator here is Ukraine.

 

[Magic Man]

I understand your point about Putin.
But what Orban did wrong to be called dictator by you?

I already posted on the other thread, but here:

"The dramatic move sent shock waves around Europe and drew increased attention to the demolition of democracy in what was once one of Central Europe’s most promising countries. Since returning to power in 2010 with a two-thirds supermajority, which has allowed Orban’s Fidesz party to redraft Hungary’s constitution, the prime minister and his cronies have undermined the independent judiciary, hollowed out the media, targeted minorities, and siphoned European Union funds. According to the nongovernmental organization Freedom House’s 2022 report, Hungary is only “partly free”—the only EU member state to fall into the category shared with India, Pakistan, Serbia, and others.

Just before Tuesday’s announcement, Orban used his supermajority to amend the country’s constitution to allow the government to declare a “state of danger” should a war erupt in a neighboring country. This was his 10th change to the constitution since it was introduced in 2012. Hungary has endured states of emergency throughout the coronavirus pandemic and the refugee crisis of 2015, but this is the first time a European state, aside from Ukraine and Moldova, has introduced such a policy since the Russian invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24.

Essentially, the state of emergency gives Orban the authority to rule by decree, bypassing parliament altogether. "

Hungary’s Orban Dials Dictatorship Up a Notch

Budapest’s faux state of emergency is meant to appease Putin and cement Orban’s hold on power.

foreignpolicy.com

I mean...kicking the elitist cabal of warmongers out of Europe is what people like us surely dream of.

Not really. Most people don't really care about your weird conspiracy theory. However, yes, getting rid of warmongers like Putin and Orban would be a dream.

With all due respect...I really like debating with you...but since you are from the US, how can you be so sure about what goes on in Europe?
I mean, I speak 6 European languages, 5 of which fluently...so...I guess I know Europe, also because I live here.

Speaking different languages doesn't mean you know about world politics. I speak 3 European languages other than English, 1 fluently. It doesn't matter. I know about what goes on in Europe the same way you do, through the internet.

I guess I am wondering whether it's Americans who live under a glass dome, and brainwashed by national media about Europe?

Of course you are, because you buy into Russian and generally right-wing propaganda.

 

[Estro Felino]

I already posted on the other thread, but here:

"The dramatic move sent shock waves around Europe and drew increased attention to the demolition of democracy in what was once one of Central Europe’s most promising countries. Since returning to power in 2010 with a two-thirds supermajority, which has allowed Orban’s Fidesz party to redraft Hungary’s constitution, the prime minister and his cronies have undermined the independent judiciary, hollowed out the media, targeted minorities, and siphoned European Union funds. According to the nongovernmental organization Freedom House’s 2022 report, Hungary is only “partly free”—the only EU member state to fall into the category shared with India, Pakistan, Serbia, and others.

Just before Tuesday’s announcement, Orban used his supermajority to amend the country’s constitution to allow the government to declare a “state of danger” should a war erupt in a neighboring country. This was his 10th change to the constitution since it was introduced in 2012. Hungary has endured states of emergency throughout the coronavirus pandemic and the refugee crisis of 2015, but this is the first time a European state, aside from Ukraine and Moldova, has introduced such a policy since the Russian invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24.

Essentially, the state of emergency gives Orban the authority to rule by decree, bypassing parliament altogether. "

Hungary’s Orban Dials Dictatorship Up a Notch

Budapest’s faux state of emergency is meant to appease Putin and cement Orban’s hold on power.

foreignpolicy.com

Hungarians keep electing Orban because he wants Hungary to remain a white Christian country.
You should blame Hungarians and call them racists for doing that.

Not really. Most people don't really care about your weird conspiracy theory. However, yes, getting rid of warmongers like Putin and Orban would be a dream.

Maybe Putin is one, but Orban went to Moscow to discuss peace.
So he is a coworker of peace. A promoter of peace.

Speaking different languages doesn't mean you know about world politics. I speak 3 European languages other than English, 1 fluently. It doesn't matter.

which are...?

I know about what goes on in Europe the same way you do, through the internet.

Indeed.
I can read Ukrainian and Russian, so I can compare what the two different media say.

Of course you are, because you buy into Russian and generally right-wing propaganda.

Many rightists hate Russia...and many leftists love Russia.

 

[Magic Man]

I must have repeated it 1000 times.
I cannot criticize what Russia did in Donbas.

Yes, I know. You can't criticize Russia because you love them and Putin and buy into their propaganda. I'm just clearing that up.

Because it's exactly what the United States did in Kosovo.
USA invaded Serbia to save Kosovar separatists from persecution.

So, the U.S. did it, which you think is wrong, but now Russia does it, and you think it's right...

Also, this is whataboutism yet again.

That's exactly what Russia has been doing.
The perpetrator here is Ukraine.

Russia invaded a sovereign country. They didn't do it to protect anyone or to save a language or anything like that. Putin did it to gain power, land and support. The perpetrator here is Russia. They're the invaders. Putin is the warmonger. That's just facts.

 

[Magic Man]

Hungarians keep electing Orban because he wants Hungary to remain a white Christian country.

You should blame Hungarians and call them racists for doing that.

Sure, that's part of it, and that's another problem with Orban. But they're not legitimately electing him anymore either.

Maybe Putin is one, but Orban went to Moscow to discuss peace.
So he is a coworker of peace. A promoter of peace.

No, he is a Putin supporter. He himself is an authoritarian dictator like Putin. He only wants peace if it means getting what he wants, the same as Putin.

which are...?

You'll have to explain why it matters.

Indeed.
I can read Ukrainian and Russian, so I can compare what the two different media say.

Great, but you don't do a very good job of judging it accurately, so that doesn't mean much.

Many rightists hate Russia...and many leftists love Russia.

Whether or not that's true is irrelevant.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

How dare a political leader talk to another one! Shocking

<sarcasm off>

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, I know. You can't criticize Russia because you love them and Putin and buy into their propaganda. I'm just clearing that up.

So, the U.S. did it, which you think is wrong, but now Russia does it, and you think it's right...

You don't read me then.
I must have said 1000 times that what the USA did in Kosovo was 100% understandable. 100% inevitable.

Also, this is whataboutism yet again.

No...mine is intellectual honesty. The law is equal for all. For Russia and for USA.

Russia invaded a sovereign country.

As USA did with Serbia, a sovereign country.

They didn't do it to protect anyone or to save a language or anything like that. Putin did it to gain power, land and support. The perpetrator here is Russia. They're the invaders. Putin is the warmonger. That's just facts.

Again. The situation is identical to that of Kosovo in the nineties.

 

[Estro Felino]

Whether or not that's true is irrelevant.

Unfortunately it is relevant.
Because politics is not soccer-fan-ism.

It's not a soccer game.

I criticize both the right and the left in any country.

I am not that kind of person who says: I vote for that team, so whatever that team does is good and holy. Amen.