Orban meets Putin for peace talks

[Magic Man]

You don't read me then.
I must have said 1000 times that what the USA did in Kosovo was 100% understandable. 100% inevitable.

So, you support warmongering.

No...mine is intellectual honesty. The law is equal for all. For Russia and for USA.

No, this is whataboutism. You brought up a completely separate topic to distract from the current one.

As USA did with Serbia, a sovereign country.

No one cares. Stick to the current situation.

Again. The situation is identical to that of Kosovo in the nineties.

It is not. Regardless of that, stick to the current situation. What happened in a completely different situation has no bearing on this one. Russia invade a sovereign country. Putin is the warmonger. He is responsible for all of this. He is in the wrong.

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly I am a bit shocked by the fact that the American people believe every single thing the media tell them.

It's not really that simple. Americans get information from a variety of sources, including their base knowledge learned from their parents, schools, churches, peers, as well as the media. The trouble with media is that they don't make as concerted an effort as they once did to keep objective news stories and editorial commentary separate. Some people seem to confuse what is fact with what is opinion.

Another thing to take note of is not so much what the media tell them, but also what they're not telling them as well. I've been a longtime fan of Project Censored (Project Censored - Promoting Critical Media Literacy), which covers news stories which received little to no coverage by the mainstream outlets. They've been around for decades.

And similarly, government tends to operate without any form of transparency, with a standard pattern of secrecy and denial to which the public has reacted in different ways.

Honestly I thought we the West had evolved from the warlike stage (which I call the animal stage).
I thought that wars nowadays were only economic wars, embargoes, commercial wars.

And then I thought of all those capitalists greedy for billions of dollars gained through sale of warfare...and I connected the dots.
I mean...they need to create wars artificially. To sell weapons to countries.

By the way, here in Europe they know very well that if the governments decided to enter the war, the next day there would be revolutions in every single European country.
Also because it's explicitly forbidden in our constitution.
But...those revolutions would be a chance to destroy the European Union, so maybe it would be a win for us.

I thought the whole world had evolved from a warlike mentality as well. The devastation from the World Wars should have taught us all some valuable lessons.

But sometimes, I don't know if the West is really all that evolved or not. Some factions in some countries seem to be reverting back to a more nationalistic, atavistic way of thinking. They want to go back to the "good old days" when things were "great." Just like Trump says he wants to Make America Great Again, there are European leaders who want to Make Europe Great Again. (So I guess that would make them "MEGA"s.)

 

[Estro Felino]

How dare a political leader talk to another one! Shocking

<sarcasm off>

How dare he talk about peace.

 

[Magic Man]

Unfortunately it is relevant.
Because politics is not soccer-fan-ism.

It's not a soccer game.

I criticize both the right and the left in any country.

I am not that kind of person who says: I vote for that team, so whatever that team does is good and holy. Amen.

You support your team: authoritarian right-wingers. You root against your enemy, including liberals, leftists, and generally anyone who criticizes your team.

And again, none of this is relevant. Whether some right-wingers hate Russia and some left-wingers love it is irrelevant, as I said. Your post here doesn't even address that. Please try to stick to one thing at a time.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's not really that simple. Americans get information from a variety of sources, including their base knowledge learned from their parents, schools, churches, peers, as well as the media. The trouble with media is that they don't make as concerted an effort as they once did to keep objective news stories and editorial commentary separate. Some people seem to confuse what is fact with what is opinion.

Another thing to take note of is not so much what the media tell them, but also what they're not telling them as well. I've been a longtime fan of Project Censored (The Official Project Censored Online Store), which covers news stories which received little to no coverage by the mainstream outlets. They've been around for decades.

And similarly, government tends to operate without any form of transparency, with a standard pattern of secrecy and denial to which the public has reacted in different ways.

Absolutely true.
Mark Twain used to say: it's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.

Americans have been fooled. Starting with universal healthcare.
They told them they do not deserve free healthcare because healthcare is business, so they were convinced that it's good to give billions of dollars to the insurance companies.

I thought the whole world had evolved from a warlike mentality as well. The devastation from the World Wars should have taught us all some valuable lessons.

The devastation took place in Europe. Not in America.
Europeans learned the devastation.

But sometimes, I don't know if the West is really all that evolved or not. Some factions in some countries seem to be reverting back to a more nationalistic, atavistic way of thinking. They want to go back to the "good old days" when things were "great." Just like Trump says he wants to Make America Great Again, there are European leaders who want to Make Europe Great Again. (So I guess that would make them "MEGA"s.)

I am different. I want MESA.
Make Europe Socialist Again.

 

[Estro Felino]

You support your team: authoritarian right-wingers. You root against your enemy, including liberals, leftists, and generally anyone who criticizes your team.

And again, none of this is relevant. Whether some right-wingers hate Russia and some left-wingers love it is irrelevant, as I said. Your post here doesn't even address that. Please try to stick to one thing at a time.

I am not in the team Russia.
I have already said that what the USA did in Kosovo was good, because Kosovo deserved independence.
I may criticize the methods, but I am not in the team Serbia-Russia in the Kosovo case.

 

[Nakosis]

Orban is the President of the European Council right now.
A real man in a Europe filled with male politicians who are really disappointing.

This image has irritated the elitist cabal of warmongers overseas (who are on the verge of a stroke) and of course, the EU technocrats.
Who don't represent the European peoples.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungarys-orban-says-no-position-negotiate-between-ukraine-russia-2024-07-05/

European Officials Say Orban 'Exploiting EU Presidency' By Visiting Putin For Ukraine Talks

European leaders on July 5 slammed Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban for his visit to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin, accusing him of shaking hands "with a bloody dictator" and of "exploiting the EU presidency position to sow confusion."

www.rferl.org

Peace will be a matter a time. In Europe peace will triumph and Russia will be considered an ally in the future.
So dear allies overseas: Abandon all hope. Peace will triumph.
Your thirst for war will not be satiated.

Putin seems to have a preference for Biden over Trump as well.

 

[Estro Felino]

So, you support warmongering.

No, this is whataboutism. You brought up a completely separate topic to distract from the current one.

No one cares. Stick to the current situation.

It is not. Regardless of that, stick to the current situation. What happened in a completely different situation has no bearing on this one. Russia invade a sovereign country. Putin is the warmonger. He is responsible for all of this. He is in the wrong.

Two robbers rob a bank. They both steal bills from the bank.
One is a rich man, the other is a poor clerk.

The judge judges them both in court. At the end of the day, his verdict is:
- I condemn the clerk to prison, and I acquit the rich man.

And the clerk protests: but what about my accomplice? He did the same thing as me.

And the judge answers: how dare you? This is whataboutism.

You exactly sound like that judge, dear sir

Whatboutism offends EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

I must have repeated it 1000 times.
I cannot criticize what Russia did in Donbas.
Because it's exactly what the United States did in Kosovo.
USA invaded Serbia to save Kosovar separatists from persecution.

That's exactly what Russia has been doing.
The perpetrator here is Ukraine.

OK @Estro Felino , let's take a moment and look at your statement above.

You're equating Russia's actions in the Donbas with the US' actions in Kosovo (circa 1999).
In Kosovo, many thousands of Kosovar civilians were being killed, and tens of thousands were being burned out of their homes in what was often referred to as an "ethnic cleansing" by the Yugoslavians. Then, after almost a year of this unilateral violence, all of NATO (in which the USA is a leading member) sent in bombing runs (and early drone tech) to hit the militant groups (yes, a few hundred civilians were killed in the attacks).

So, to make the equation that you put forth....
1. - Please show proof of massive scale violence/murder/arson against Donbas civilians by the Ukrainian military and/or paramilitary groups. Keeping in mind that Putin claimed their were "Nazis" in the Ukraine who were causing violence; and that he had paramilitary groups already across the Ukrainian border, proven to be Russians disguised as Ukrainians, who caused some small-scale violence, as a prelude to Putin's full-scale invasion.
2. - Other than Putin himself, what voting bloc all voted to go along with the air/ground/naval invasion of Ukraine?
3. - And this one is important..... How many acres of former Yugoslavian land did the US keep after sending in their air-raids?

With all hopes for peace to return to Ukraine. After all of the money and weapons that we are supplying the Ukrainians with, in order to fight off the Russian invaders...... exactly how much of their land and people do the EU and US get to divvy up? **rubs hands together in greedy anticipation**


Russian stormtroopers disguise themselves as Ukraine’s Armed Forces in east: provocations expected
How Russian Soldiers Ran a "Cleansing" Operation in Bucha, Ukraine | FRONTLINE
Little green men (Russo-Ukrainian War) - Wikipedia

"After two months of denial, on 17 April 2014, Russian president Vladimir Putin confirmed that the Russian military had been operating in Ukraine."​

 

[Magic Man]

I am not in the team Russia.
I have already said that what the USA did in Kosovo was good, because Kosovo deserved independence.
I may criticize the methods, but I am not in the team Serbia-Russia in the Kosovo case.

You have very clearly and repeatedly professed your love for Putin. You even said you wish he'd take over your country. You started a thread to unfairly and inaccurately criticize Ukraine, but you refuse to criticize Russia. You talk about the West being warmongers but ignore the fact that Putin started this war, making him the warmonger.

You are very much team Russia.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Putin seems to have a preference for Biden over Trump as well.

I don't believe that for a second

 

[Magic Man]

Two robbers rob a bank. They both steal bills from the bank.
One is a rich man, the other is a poor clerk.

The judge judges them both in court. At the end of the day, his verdict is:
- I condemn the clerk to prison, and I acquit the rich man.

And the clerk protests: but what about my accomplice? He did the same thing as me.

And the judge answers: how dare you? This is whataboutism.

You exactly sound like that judge, dear sir

Yeah, nope.

Me: Russia invaded a sovereign country. That's wrong, and they should call it off.
You: What about Kosovo?

That's literally whataboutism. The honest thing to do is address the claim. Address Russia's invasion of Ukraine. What another country did to another country in the past is irrelevant. The only time it could be relevant is if the person you're talking to has already expressed an opinion on that. For instance, I bring up your support for Putin and Russia in the context of your criticism of Ukraine and Zelenskyy because you previously expressed strong feelings about Putin and Russia, and those views contradict yours concerning Russia.

I have never said anything about Kosovo, and I haven't mentioned America here.

Whatboutism is the stupidest think I can thing of that offends EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW.

Whataboutism has nothing to do with "equality under the law" or "offending" it, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Whataboutism is when you bring up a completely different thing to distract from the current thing. "What about Kosovo?" is irrelevant to Russian invading Ukraine.

 

[Wu Wei]

I really can't post what I am thinking so I will jsut post this and leave this thread forever...

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, nope.

Me: Russia invaded a sovereign country. That's wrong, and they should call it off.
You: What about Kosovo?

That's literally whataboutism. The honest thing to do is address the claim. Address Russia's invasion of Ukraine. What another country did to another country in the past is irrelevant. The only time it could be relevant is if the person you're talking to has already expressed an opinion on that. For instance, I bring up your support for Putin and Russia in the context of your criticism of Ukraine and Zelenskyy because you previously expressed strong feelings about Putin and Russia, and those views contradict yours concerning Russia.

I have never said anything about Kosovo, and I haven't mentioned America here.

Whataboutism has nothing to do with "equality under the law" or "offending" it, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Whataboutism is when you bring up a completely different thing to distract from the current thing. "What about Kosovo?" is irrelevant to Russian invading Ukraine.

This thread is about International Politics.

Do you think international law is equal for all...or some countries are privileged?

 

[Estro Felino]

You have very clearly and repeatedly professed your love for Putin. You even said you wish he'd take over your country. You started a thread to unfairly and inaccurately criticize Ukraine, but you refuse to criticize Russia. You talk about the West being warmongers but ignore the fact that Putin started this war, making him the warmonger.

You are very much team Russia.

So many Ukrainians come here and tell us that they are persecuted in their own country, and that Zely forces them to go to war against their will, and that they are sick and tired of the war.

Sounds like Italians in 1945 before Mussolini's downfall.

 

[Magic Man]

This thread is about International Politics.

Do you think international law is equal for all...or some countries are privileged?

No, we're talking about one topic, and you keep jumping around like you always do. Stick to one topic at a time, please. If we resolve the first topic, then maybe move on.

 

[Magic Man]

So many Ukrainians come here and tell us that they are persecuted in their own country, and that Zely forces them to go to war against their will, and that they are sick and tired of the war.

They do? If there are "so many", I guess it'll be easy for you to provide the support for this bold claim.

Sounds like Italians in 1945 before Mussolini's downfall.

It sounds nothing like that. It sounds like Ukraine is fighting for its life against a warmonger who invaded for no justifiable reason. Mussolini is like Putin, not Zelenskyy. Italy fell because it was part of an alliance that was murdering millions of innocent minorities and trying to spread its cause to other countries.

 

[Magic Man]

Okay, you want to plead the fifth.
But pleading the fifth = guilty, in my country.

Nope, I want you to stick to one thing at a time and not jump around without addressing what's said first.

Me: Trump is a far-right authoritarian.
You: Taxes are high in Argentina.
Me: ...OK...

Stay on topic until the topic is addressed. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Estro Felino]

OK @Estro Felino , let's take a moment and look at your statement above.

You're equating Russia's actions in the Donbas with the US' actions in Kosovo (circa 1999).
In Kosovo, many thousands of Kosovar civilians were being killed, and tens of thousands were being burned out of their homes in what was often referred to as an "ethnic cleansing" by the Yugoslavians. Then, after almost a year of this unilateral violence, all of NATO (in which the USA is a leading member) sent in bombing runs (and early drone tech) to hit the militant groups (yes, a few hundred civilians were killed in the attacks).

So, to make the equation that you put forth....
1. - Please show proof of massive scale violence/murder/arson against Donbas civilians by the Ukrainian military and/or paramilitary groups. Keeping in mind that Putin claimed their were "Nazis" in the Ukraine who were causing violence; and that he had paramilitary groups already across the Ukrainian border, proven to be Russians disguised as Ukrainians, who caused some small-scale violence, as a prelude to Putin's full-scale invasion.
2. - Other than Putin himself, what voting bloc all voted to go along with the air/ground/naval invasion of Ukraine?
3. - And this one is important..... How many acres of former Yugoslavian land did the US keep after sending in their air-raids?

With all hopes for peace to return to Ukraine. After all of the money and weapons that we are supplying the Ukrainians with, in order to fight off the Russian invaders...... exactly how much of their land and people do the EU and US get to divvy up? **rubs hands together in greedy anticipation**


Russian stormtroopers disguise themselves as Ukraine’s Armed Forces in east: provocations expected
How Russian Soldiers Ran a "Cleansing" Operation in Bucha, Ukraine | FRONTLINE
Little green men (Russo-Ukrainian War) - Wikipedia

"After two months of denial, on 17 April 2014, Russian president Vladimir Putin confirmed that the Russian military had been operating in Ukraine."​

War in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are the source of the war from 2014 to 2021

who killed 3,404 civilians?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

War in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here are the source of the war from 2014 to 2021

who killed 3,404 civilians?

Both sides, and of course that does include the 298 killed when Russia shot down the Malaysian Airline plane, and those killed by the Russian militant forces infiltrated inside of the Ukraine solely to kill and burn so as to convince people that eastern Ukraine wanted to return to mother USSR Russia.

But you're dodging. Again.
How much land in Kosovo did the USA keep for themselves after we helped put a stop to the "ethnic cleansing"?
@Estro Felino ?