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Organized religion = evil.

A. Ben-Shema

Active Member
Faith transcends all that is worldly.
Faith is the highest authority. It is to be obey and followed before all else. Faith is beyond reason; if something makes no sense than it is to be accepted or acted on by faith and faith alone. Faith transcends the ethic and laws of man. While an act of faith may seem immoral and unjust it is not, because duty to God is higher than duty to man.


But this faith you speak of might be 'blind' faith! Faith without 'Vision' or 'Gnosis' (of God Himself) is, by definition, blind.

So organized religion is not the problem because they follow the word of God.

Do they, REALLY?

Surly God's ways are better than man's. If a law of God does not make any sense you must have faith in God. If a law of God seems immoral you must have faith in god. The word of God is infallible and can not be changed by man.

Which do you mean is 'infallible' - the 'words' of the Bible? or THE 'Word' (= Logos) of God? They are completely different things.


If you have faith in God it would be illogical not to follow the word of God.

See above comment.


:)
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Well Ben I don't mean Faith in it's totality is wrong. But I believe it is being misused. People take to many things on faith, things that reason should be handling. I think we should leave matters of faith to faith and matters of reason to reason.
 

A. Ben-Shema

Active Member
Well Ben I don't mean Faith in it's totality is wrong. But I believe it is being misused. People take to many things on faith, things that reason should be handling. I think we should leave matters of faith to faith and matters of reason to reason.

What you are now saying is a complete contradiction to your previous post, in which you said faith is ALL important, totally correct, and to be followed above all else! Or did I somehow misunderstand you?

:)
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
I think we should have philosophy taught in public schools. Teach people how to think not what to think.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
What you are now saying is a complete contradiction to your previous post, in which you said faith is ALL important, totally correct, and to be followed above all else! Or did I somehow misunderstand you?

:)

I was just was posting on how faith works as I see it. I know I need to improve my writing skills.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Think of it this way. A person instilled with the faith of their God will do the immoral and the unreasonable because that faith transcends both.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Think of it this way. A person instilled with the faith of their God will do the immoral and the unreasonable because that faith transcends both.
Not necessarily. Faith and reason can, and frequently do, work together. Don't make his mistake of over-generalizing. :)
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Not necessarily. Faith and reason can, and frequently do, work together. Don't make his mistake of over-generalizing. :)
Right on!

From FIDES ET RATIO:

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth...

<snip>

Once reason successfully intuits and formulates the first universal principles of being and correctly draws from them conclusions which are coherent both logically and ethically, then it may be called right reason or, as the ancients called it, orthós logos, recta ratio.

<snip>

The world and all that happens within it, including history and the fate of peoples, are realities to be observed, analysed and assessed with all the resources of reason, but without faith ever being foreign to the process.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. Faith and reason can, and frequently do, work together. Don't make his mistake of over-generalizing. :)


I am not generalizing I was talking about faith and faith alone not people. It was just an example, I am have a hard time putting my thoughts into words. But I am not talking about people just faith.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
God was not tempting Abraham to sacrifice Isaac; rather he was tempting him to do the ethical thing, to not sacrifice him. For truly, from an ethical standpoint Isaac&#8217;s death would not be sacrifice, it would be murder, plain and simple. And as Susan Anderson asks in her book On Kierkegaard, &#8220;could there be anything more wrong, from the ethical perspective, than that a parent &#8211; who brought a child into the world and therefore has the most solemn obligation to protect the child &#8211; would turn around and take the life of that child?&#8221; (Anderson 56). But Abraham, because his faith in God was so strong went along and did it. He prepared to sacrifice that which was most dear to him.


There are other stories of fathers sacrificing their children, and Kierkegaard brings up a number of these: Agamemmnon, Jephtha and Brutus were all tragic heroes called upon to kill a child. And they all did so. But their circumstances were quite different from Abraham&#8217;s. In each case the sacrifice was necessary in order to protect the community; Agamemmnon to appease an angry deity, Jephthah to fulfill a promise with God that the fate of Israel rested upon, and Brutus to uphold the principle of Roman justice. Their sacrifices made sense ethically: they gave up what they held most dear in the name of the universal. Furthermore, it is easy to relate and sympathize with these tragic heroes; indeed, we pray for that we would have the courage to do what was required in the time of crisis.



But Abraham? He was willing to destroy his own son to prove his faith in God. His act, by ethical standards, was totally unjustified. &#8220;It is not to save a nation, not to uphold the idea of the state that Abraham does it; it is not to appease the angry gods. If it were a matter of the deity&#8217;s being angry, then he was, after all, angry only with Abraham, and Abraham&#8217;s act is totally unrelated to the universal, is a purely private endeavor&#8221; (Philosophic 271). Not only would he be defying ethical morality, he would be actually destroying the universal, the potential for further generations, which was &#8220;cryptically . . . hidden, so to speak, in Isaac&#8217;s loins, and must cry out with Isaac&#8217;s mouth: Do not do this, you are destroying everything&#8221; (Philosophic 271).
Because Abraham had faith, God spared Isaac, but this does not change the fact that Abraham raised the knife and was ready to go through with what God had originally asked him to do. And yet &#8220;even at the instant when the knife glittered he believed . . . that God would not require Isaac&#8221; (Anderson 58). And even if God let Isaac be killed, Kierkegaard speculates that Abraham would have not despaired; he would have believed, &#8220;he did not believe that some day he would be blessed in the beyond, but that he would be happy here in the world. God could give him a new Isaac, could recall to life him who had been sacrificed. He believed by virtue of the absurd; for all human reckoning had long since ceased to function&#8221; (Anderson 58).



No one can understand Abraham, for the entire act occurred within him, between him and God. Kierkegaard writes &#8220;Abraham cannot be mediated; in other words, he cannot speak. As soon as I speak I express the universal, and if I do not do so, no one can understand me.&#8221; Abraham of course cannot express himself in the universal, ethical sense, because &#8220;he has no higher expression of the universal that ranks above the universal he violates.&#8221; Abraham performs the ultimate act of faith: he risks everything, and then by virtue of that risk, of his faith, he gets it all back. It makes no sense at all, but that is how religion operates, according to Kierkegaard. Even believing the story of Abraham requires an act of faith, for &#8220;the observer cannot understand him at all; neither can his eye rest upon him with confidence.&#8221; But while having faith is tremendously difficult, Kierkegaard stands in awe of it: &#8220;to be able to lose one&#8217;s reason, and therefore the whole of finiteness of which reason is the broker, and then by the virtue of the absurd to gain precisely the same finiteness &#8211; that appalls my soul, but I do not for this cause say that it is something lowly, since on the contrary it is the only prodigy (Anderson 60).&#8221; (Philosophic 271).

I am still working on Kierkegaard so I am still not sure I understand it right.

Here's the link

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/11301/kierkegaards_philosophy_of_faith.html?page=3
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It might be that that is just how large groups of people are naturally inclined to act, and religion might just be the largest and most common example.

It may be. However:
1. Not all large groups act all of these ways.
2. Many small religious groups are the worst offenders.
3. At a minimum, religion doesn't help, and seems to aggravate the problem if anything.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I would say that quote is about men, not religion. But because religions are carried out by men, and religious organizations are made up of men, they often then take on those characteristics.
No women then?

Anyway, yes, all religionists are people, but the author is making the more specific point that people who organize themselves into religious groups are particularly egregiuos in their actions. To point out that they're all people is not particularly edifying.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I don't completely agree. Religion is a strong motivator, but I'd certainly say that other ideologies can motivate just as much and can go just as bad if not worse. Nationalism, communism, cults of personality, all can result in equally vile excesses to the worst that have ever been done in the name or religion. I think the only reason people think that the religious excesses are so bad (when often they are actually on a smaller scale than non-religious eqiuivalents) is that we know deep down that part of the purpose of religion is to make individuals and societies more moral. When the opposite happens this impacts on us, I feel, rather more deeply than when a political ideology such as communism does the same. We simply don't have the same high expectations for political movements as we do for religious ones.

James
Yes, I think you're right. Other movements share these horrific characteristics, but religion adds the fillip of hypocrisy, of claiming the moral high ground while occupying the low.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No women then?

Anyway, yes, all religionists are people, but the author is making the more specific point that people who organize themselves into religious groups are particularly egregiuos in their actions. To point out that they're all people is not particularly edifying.
I don't believe that the actions of religious groups of people are any more egregious than the actions of any other groups of people. I think what happens is that we feel they are more egregious because when a religious group of people acts badly they do so claiming moral superiority. And thus they are hipocrites as well as murdrers, torturers, rapists and thieves.

But this creates a false perception. And in fact, I suspect that religious groups are probably, over all, LESS often inclined to such misbehavior as compared to human groups in general.
 

Hema

Sweet n Spicy
People use religion as an excuse for their own wicked acts. These people are the ones to blame, not religion itself.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
People use religion as an excuse for their own wicked acts. These people are the ones to blame, not religion itself.

Here endeth the thread. :bow: There is nothing more left to say except...frubals, Hema. :)
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience. "

I basically agree with this statement, organized religion has always been more about gaining and keeping power than anything else.
 

Smoke

Done here.
And in fact, I suspect that religious groups are probably, over all, LESS often inclined to such misbehavior as compared to human groups in general.
Would you say that the Roman Catholic Church, the LDS Church, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Southern Baptist Church, for example, have committed fewer acts of violence, intolerance and coercion than, say, the Lions Clubs International, the American Philatelic Society, the American Institute of Mathematics, or the International Amateur Radio Club?
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
People use religion as an excuse for their own wicked acts. These people are the ones to blame, not religion itself.


Organized religion has placed itself in a position of control. It has obligated its self to provide spiritual, lawful & ethical structure and guidance ( i.e. control) for the masses. It is also a faith base system as such people place their trust in these organizations. This also means seeing how it is a faith based system that its laws are typically not very flexible . This is where the organization fails its responsibility to the masses that have placed their faith in it. They are using laws and traditions that are thousands of years old and no longer apply to modern times.

We already know people do wicked acts, that is the reason for "control" and that is where the blame should be placed. If oragainzed religion does not want to accpet the responsibility of the blame than it should relinquish its control.


:)
 
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