"Origin of the Species" is Theistic

[ecco]

Rape (an all other forms of assault) is not okay in Judaism. It is not "loving your neighbor as yourself." Judaism teaches "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Exodus 21:24 Bava Kama 8:1 states “One who wounds his neighbor is liable to pay for five damages: permanent impairment, pain and suffering, healing expenses, loss of time from work, and shame.” Here is a summary How Do the Rabbis in the Talmud Address Rape? | My Jewish Learning of Bava Kama 83b-84a which deals with rape (including the silent victim).

If there are verses equivalent to Biblical Deuteronomy 20:14 and numbers 31:18 in your scripture, then what the Rabbis say is superceded by what God said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You do not know that chimps do not self-reflect.

Show many any study which indicates that chimps self reflect ON MORAL ISSUES.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If there are verses equivalent to Biblical Deuteronomy 20:14 and numbers 31:18 in your scripture, then what the Rabbis say is superceded by what God said.

What the rabbis say has God given authority to determine belief, teaching, and practice per Deuteronomy 17:8-13.

 

[Bear Wild]

Show many any study which indicates that chimps self reflect ON MORAL ISSUES.

Who determines what the moral issues are?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Who determines what the moral issues are?

I thought we agreed that issues concerning empathy and justice were moral issues? If we can't build on past posts, then go talk to someone else.

 

[ecco]

Show many any study which indicates that chimps self reflect ON MORAL ISSUES.

Without morals, why would chimps adopt orphans?

https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/5-amazing-ways-chimps-are-just-like-us/
Chimpanzees are capable of feeling a wide range of emotions, including joy, happiness and empathy. They look out for one another and often provide help when needed. For example, both male and female adults have been observed adopting orphaned chimps in the wild and at the Tchimpounga sanctuary. Chimpanzees have even been known to come to the aid of humans who have been threatened.



ETA: Your own words...(my emphasis)

I thought we agreed that issues concerning empathy and justice were moral issues?

 

[ecco]

If there are verses equivalent to Biblical Deuteronomy 20:14 and numbers 31:18 in your scripture, then what the Rabbis say is superceded by what God said.

What the rabbis say has God given authority to determine belief, teaching, and practice per Deuteronomy 17:8-13.

Are you saying that what a Rabbi says takes precedence over what your scripture says?

There is one scripture, there are thousands of Rabbis.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Without morals, why would chimps adopt orphans?

You are not reading me carefully.

There is a difference between instinctual morals and reflective morals. Chimps do have instinctual morals -- they react reflexively in moral ways. They are on their way to evolving a more complete morality. But it's not there yet because they don't yet REFLECT on moral issues the way humans do. Let me give you examples of the difference.

Your son is a heroine addict. He can't hold down a job. If left to himself, he ends up on the streets, without food, stealing for that next fix. You are terrified he is going to die from any of a number of different reasons. So you take him in even though he uses you, mooches off of you, steals from you, and uses the money to support his habit. He doesn't even help clean the house, but is a slob. But your compassion for him and your fear for him have you acting reflexively, instinctively out of empathy.

Reflective morality would have you look at the same situation long term, and see that you are only enabling your son, worsening the problem. You see that if you truly love him, you will do what it takes to make the reality of his abuse hit home, and you will not feed his dysfunction, will not contribute to it. As painful as it might be, you will not give in to your natural senses of fear and empathy, and you kick him out. You set him up in a furnished apartment with a butt load of food, and give him leads for rehab. Then you cut the chord, no matter what his pleas. This is reflective morality.

Sometimes reflective morality lines up with instinctual morality. Sometimes it doesn't. But the point is, you think it through. You may decide that what you did was wrong, and experience guilt. You may resolve to do differently in the future.

 

[Bear Wild]

I thought we agreed that issues concerning empathy and justice were moral issues? If we can't build on past posts, then go talk to someone else.

I have already given you examples of empathy. As for justice there are multiple examples of chimpanzees showing fairness and distributing food to those who have helped or those who are unable to feed. It is a form of justice that in the wild during a hunt those chimpanzees who help with the hunt for other to catch the pray. Chimpanzees who have the catch make sure those that help receive part of the catch. This is a social justice. If you help you are rewarded if you do not participate you are not. That is justice. The same is seen in the cooperation behavior studies which requires two to three to work together for a common goal. The one that gets the reward then shares it with the others that participated. Their sense of equity has also been demonstrated and observed when one chimpanzee gets more of a special food it shares it with one that they are aware did not. These behaviors have been very well documented and verified. So empathy and justice are seen in chimpanzees.
So what is the next requirement, or did that satisfy to admit to the similarities.

 

[Bear Wild]

You are not reading me carefully.

There is a difference between instinctual morals and reflective morals. Chimps do have instinctual morals -- they react reflexively in moral ways. They are on their way to evolving a more complete morality. But it's not there yet because they don't yet REFLECT on moral issues the way humans do. Let me give you examples of the difference.

Your son is a heroine addict. He can't hold down a job. If left to himself, he ends up on the streets, without food, stealing for that next fix. You are terrified he is going to die from any of a number of different reasons. So you take him in even though he uses you, mooches off of you, steals from you, and uses the money to support his habit. He doesn't even help clean the house, but is a slob. But your compassion for him and your fear for him have you acting reflexively, instinctively out of empathy.

Reflective morality would have you look at the same situation long term, and see that you are only enabling your son, worsening the problem. You see that if you truly love him, you will do what it takes to make the reality of his abuse hit home, and you will not feed his dysfunction, will not contribute to it. As painful as it might be, you will not give in to your natural senses of fear and empathy, and you kick him out. You set him up in a furnished apartment with a butt load of food, and give him leads for rehab. Then you cut the chord, no matter what his pleas. This is reflective morality.

Sometimes reflective morality lines up with instinctual morality. Sometimes it doesn't. But the point is, you think it through. You may decide that what you did was wrong, and experience guilt. You may resolve to do differently in the future.

Chimpanzees do not have any more instinctual behaviors than humans. They do show reflective morals. There is so many studies and fiield observations that demonstrate this. Instincts occur in humans and other animals. Yes they may play a more important role in those with more simple nervous systems but the chimpanzee nervous system is far to complex for that outdated statement. Cat behavior is far to complex for it to be called instinctual. Chimpanzees reflect on all kinds of behavior carefully watching each other to determine what the other is considering.

As for family and compassion there are so many examples of behavior showing reflective behavior on the others condition that they share valuable resources. These are not instinctive behaviors/ empathy except for close minded humans that have the never ending need of superiority. These observations in chimpanzees are witness over long periods of time. Chimpanzees think and reflect over behabior. Chimpanzees also react to inappropriate behavior such as freeloading on food requiring work to get.
No chimpanzees do not use heroine or live in houses to show the exact same example but in their ecological environment the show the relfective decisioning behavior needed for moral decisions in their social organization.

So you instinctual and reflective moral behaviors are seen in both species. Darwin remains correct it is just a matter of degree and not kind.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Chimpanzees do not have any more instinctual behaviors than humans. They do show reflective morals. There is so many studies and fiield observations that demonstrate this. Instincts occur in humans and other animals. Yes they may play a more important role in those with more simple nervous systems but the chimpanzee nervous system is far to complex for that outdated statement. Cat behavior is far to complex for it to be called instinctual. Chimpanzees reflect on all kinds of behavior carefully watching each other to determine what the other is considering.

As for family and compassion there are so many examples of behavior showing reflective behavior on the others condition that they share valuable resources. These are not instinctive behaviors/ empathy except for close minded humans that have the never ending need of superiority. These observations in chimpanzees are witness over long periods of time. Chimpanzees think and reflect over behabior. Chimpanzees also react to inappropriate behavior such as freeloading on food requiring work to get.
No chimpanzees do not use heroine or live in houses to show the exact same example but in their ecological environment the show the relfective decisioning behavior needed for moral decisions in their social organization.

So you instinctual and reflective moral behaviors are seen in both species. Darwin remains correct it is just a matter of degree and not kind.

I'm sorry but you are simply mistaken. Chimpanzees do not "think and reflect" over their behavior. In this thread I have asked more than once for studies showing this sort of moral reflection, and so far no one has provided any. Nothing to show guilt on the part of chimps. Nothing to show that chimps consciously put the good feels of following empathy aside for the long term benefits of the other. Etc. Nothing at all. They simply are not on the same level.

 

[metis]

It used to be an axiom that only humans use "reason", but now we know that this simply isn't even close to being true.

In anthropology, we extensively observe primate behavior, and the base reality is that they pretty much have what we have cognitively, but not to anywhere the same degree as us-- or at least most of us.

 

[Bear Wild]

I'm sorry but you are simply mistaken. Chimpanzees do not "think and reflect" over their behavior. In this thread I have asked more than once for studies showing this sort of moral reflection, and so far no one has provided any. Nothing to show guilt on the part of chimps. Nothing to show that chimps consciously put the good feels of following empathy aside for the long term benefits of the other. Etc. Nothing at all. They simply are not on the same level.

I am not saying they at the exact same level as humans but I have given examples of empathy and other behaviors that would not occur if the chimps could not think and reflect. For you to say I am mistaken is to ignore the data available with just opinion. You cannot explain their ability to and understand their fellow chimpanzees behaviors in conflict resolution which requires the understanding the actions and behavioral patterns of more then one chimp at a time without thinking and reflecting before taking actions to resolve a dispute. This three party negotiations requires complex analysis for it to be successful. Your patronizing of the chimpanzee studies in the wild and in controlled studies and ignoring the clear complex behavior in an organism with such similar neurologic structures and relays is disappointing for your usual understanding of a subject. Which neurologic pathway or synapses are they missing. What study do you have that shows they do not think and reflect on their behavior?

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
Without morals, why would chimps adopt orphans?

You are not reading me carefully.

There is a difference between instinctual morals and reflective morals.

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual" definition. No definition came up.

What did come up were books and blog posts using those terms.

Chimps do have instinctual morals -- they react reflexively in moral ways.

I carefully read the above and each time it seems that you are contradicting yourself.




In any case, you did not provide a clear answer as to why chimps would adopt orphans. Care to try again?

 

[ecco]

In this thread I have asked more than once for studies showing this sort of moral reflection, and so far no one has provided any.

Chimps Know Death When They See It - The Crux
Chimps Know Death When They See It
By Bridget Alex | September 28, 2018 4:52 pm
87

Noel, a chimpanzee, used a grass stem to pick debris from the teeth of a dead chimp in a sanctuary in Zambia. (van Leeuwen, Cronin, and Haun; Scientific Reports Volume 7, March 2017)

After Rosie’s mother died, she accompanied the lifeless body throughout the night, in apparent mourning. When Noel lost her adopted son, she picked his teeth clean with a grass stem. And Jire carried her infant’s corpse for 68 days after the one-year-old succumbed to a respiratory infection.​

Also...

Research Shows Chimpanzees Cooperate First and Think Later - Jane Goodall's Good for All News
We found that chimpanzees also show a bias for fast cooperation like humans. In the donation task, chimpanzees were more likely to give food altruistically if they made a split-second decision—the longer it took to decide, the more likely they acted selfishly.​

 

[Bear Wild]

Chimps Know Death When They See It - The Crux
Chimps Know Death When They See It
By Bridget Alex | September 28, 2018 4:52 pm
87

Noel, a chimpanzee, used a grass stem to pick debris from the teeth of a dead chimp in a sanctuary in Zambia. (van Leeuwen, Cronin, and Haun; Scientific Reports Volume 7, March 2017)

After Rosie’s mother died, she accompanied the lifeless body throughout the night, in apparent mourning. When Noel lost her adopted son, she picked his teeth clean with a grass stem. And Jire carried her infant’s corpse for 68 days after the one-year-old succumbed to a respiratory infection.​

Also...

Research Shows Chimpanzees Cooperate First and Think Later - Jane Goodall's Good for All News
We found that chimpanzees also show a bias for fast cooperation like humans. In the donation task, chimpanzees were more likely to give food altruistically if they made a split-second decision—the longer it took to decide, the more likely they acted selfishly.​

This is my opinion but I think the attitude comes from the long standing prejudice that humans must be different "look what we do". Darwin was right from the beginning it is a matter of degree and not kind but did not have the research support we have now. The research in birds as well as many other animals shows similar complex behavior to meet social needs through evolution. We have come so far from Skinner's view but not everyone. He used starvation to test cognitive function - not very useful. But the need to feel different and superior runs deep in many humans instead of accepting relatedness and interdependence as the reality of our world.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

On the second to the last page of "Origin of the Species," Charles Darwin writes,

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."

Many scientists refer to "God" and a "creator" as a literary device without actually believing in one. But either way it is irrelevant to the excellent work that Darwin did and the discoveries he made.

 

[Dan Mellis]

On the second to the last page of "Origin of the Species," Charles Darwin writes,

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."

It is. It's wrong in a number of places. We've moved on from Darwin now.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am not saying they at the exact same level as humans but I have given examples of empathy and other behaviors that would not occur if the chimps could not think and reflect.

Give me the studies, so that I can read them for myself. Thanks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

ecco said: ↑
Without morals, why would chimps adopt orphans?





I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual" definition. No definition came up.

What did come up were books and blog posts using those terms.

You don't speak English?