"Origin of the Species" is Theistic

[IndigoChild5559]

Many scientists refer to "God" and a "creator" as a literary device without actually believing in one. But either way it is irrelevant to the excellent work that Darwin did and the discoveries he made.

Sure, some do. So?

 

[metis]

Give me the studies, so that I can read them for myself. Thanks.

https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/5-amazing-ways-chimps-are-just-like-us/

 

[ecco]

You don't speak English?

Actually, I speak, read and write English quite well. That's why I questioned your use of some phrases...

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual morals" definition. No definition came up.

 

[Bear Wild]

Give me the studies, so that I can read them for myself. Thanks.

Here are some studies and reported observations. Much more is available.

Hattori, Y., K. Leimgruber, K. Fujita, and F. B. M. de Waal. 2012. Food-related tolerance in capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) varies with knowledge of the partner’s previous food-consumption. Behaviour 149:171–85.

Goodall, Jane 1986. The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior. Cambridge, MA: Belknap.

Siebenaler, J. B., and D. K. Caldwell. 1956. Cooperation among adult dolphins. Journal of Mammalogy 37:126–28.

de Waal, Frans.2008. Putting the altruism back into altruism: The evolution of empathy. Annual Review of Psychology 59:279–300.

de Waal, Frans. 2009a. The Age of Empathy: Nature’s Lessons for a Kinder Society. New York: Harmony.

Boyd, R. 2006. The puzzle of human sociality. Science 314:1555–56.

Langergraber, K. E., J. C. Mitani, and L. Vigilant. 2007. The limited impact of kinship on cooperation in wild chimpanzees. Proceedings of the Academy of Sciences USA 104:7786–90.

National Academies of Sciences and Engineering, Keck Futures Initiative Conference, Irvine, CA, November 2014.

Janmaat, K. R. L., L. Polansky, S. D. Ban, and C. Boesch. 2014. Wild chimpanzees plan their breakfast time, type, and location. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA 111:16343–48.

Tan, J., and B. Hare. 2013. Bonobos share with strangers. PloS ONE 8:e51922.

Horner, V., D. J. Carter, M. Suchak, and F. B. M. de Waal, 2011. Spontaneous prosocial choice by chimpanzees. Proceedings of the Academy of Sciences USA 108:13847–51.

Koski, Sonja E. E. H. M Sterck. 2009. Empathic chimpanzees: A proposal of the levels of emotional and cognitive processing in chimpanzee empathy. European Journal of Developmental Psychology. Vol 7:38-66.

De Waal, Frans. 2008. Putting the Altruism Back into Altruism: The Evolution of Empathy. Annual Review of Psychology. Vol. 59:279-300

Andrews K. 2012. Do Apes read minds? Toward a New Folk Psychology. Cambridge, MA: MIT press

Caruso, C. 2016. Chimps May Be Capable of Comprehending the Minds of Others. Scientific American

 

[IndigoChild5559]

https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/5-amazing-ways-chimps-are-just-like-us/

This website lists five ways that chimps are like us. None of those five ways were moral reflectiveness.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, I speak, read and write English quite well. That's why I questioned your use of some phrases...

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual morals" definition. No definition came up.

They are putting it in my own words. If you want to use what has been used in peer reviewed scientific research, it would be moral intuition and moral reasoning..

 

[metis]

This website lists five ways that chimps are like us. None of those five ways were moral reflectiveness.

So, "empathy", "respect for elders", and "compassion" don't relate to "moral reflectiveness"? Now I'm confused as to how you're using that terminology.

 

[Bear Wild]

This website lists five ways that chimps are like us. None of those five ways were moral reflectiveness.

Explain the observable behaviors that could be documented that would show moral reflectiveness in either humans or chimps. Give only observable behaviors for appropriate comparative analysis.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
Actually, I speak, read and write English quite well. That's why I questioned your use of some phrases...

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual morals" definition. No definition came up.

They are putting it in my own words. If you want to use what has been used in peer reviewed scientific research, it would be moral intuition and moral reasoning..

It's really difficult to have a conversation with someone who makes up their own words.




ETA: This is even more puzzeling now that I looked back on our conversation a little. You make up words and then have the gall to say...

You don't speak English?

I still get amazed at the lengths some people will go through to derail a conversation when their ridiculous views get challenged.

 

[Bear Wild]

ecco said: ↑
Actually, I speak, read and write English quite well. That's why I questioned your use of some phrases...

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual morals" definition. No definition came up.



It's really difficult to have a conversation with someone who makes up their own words.




ETA: This is even more puzzeling now that I looked back on our conversation a little. You make up words and then have the gall to say...


I still get amazed at the lengths some people will go through to derail a conversation when their ridiculous views get challenged.

I did find instinctive morals which is what I think is the basis of his argument in which those to make humans separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. Thus all animals including humans have instinctive morals but only humans can go beyond with reasoned morals. There are now many showing this distinction is incorrect and that animals to learn and develop social guided behavior though learning which we then attach the label moral which itself is just a word describing behaviors that benefit social behavior.
He also asks for sources with out providing any. That is probably because he no one could really think otherwise or that if reading the sources the conclusions can then be challenged.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

ecco said: ↑
Actually, I speak, read and write English quite well. That's why I questioned your use of some phrases...

I Googled "reflective morals" definition. No definition came up.
I Googled "instinctual morals" definition. No definition came up.



It's really difficult to have a conversation with someone who makes up their own words.




ETA: This is even more puzzeling now that I looked back on our conversation a little. You make up words and then have the gall to say...


I still get amazed at the lengths some people will go through to derail a conversation when their ridiculous views get challenged.

You have problems replying to concepts.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Explain the observable behaviors that could be documented that would show moral reflectiveness in either humans or chimps. Give only observable behaviors for appropriate comparative analysis.

A study could document guilt, for example. This is just off the top of my head -- I'm not giving it the kind of time I'd give it if I were actually planning it as an actual study. But we know that chimps have a sense of justice, since they get all upset when they are treated unjustly. So you could create opportunities for chimps to behave justly to other chimps. Divide them into two groups depending on whether they respond justly or not. Then record some sort of measure of distress or sadness, and compare the two groups. If the group that did not respond justly has a higher measure of distress or sadness than the group that responded justly, it may indicate guilt. (By the way, it will be hard to find chimps that behave justly.) There would need to be many studies along these lines that would use different measurement of distress/sadness, both behavioral and biological.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, "empathy", "respect for elders", and "compassion" don't relate to "moral reflectiveness"? Now I'm confused as to how you're using that terminology.

You can have these things functioning on an intuitive level, no reasoning necessary.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here are some studies and reported observations. Much more is available.

Hattori, Y., K. Leimgruber, K. Fujita, and F. B. M. de Waal. 2012. Food-related tolerance in capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) varies with knowledge of the partner’s previous food-consumption. Behaviour 149:171–85.

Goodall, Jane 1986. The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior. Cambridge, MA: Belknap.

Siebenaler, J. B., and D. K. Caldwell. 1956. Cooperation among adult dolphins. Journal of Mammalogy 37:126–28.

de Waal, Frans.2008. Putting the altruism back into altruism: The evolution of empathy. Annual Review of Psychology 59:279–300.

de Waal, Frans. 2009a. The Age of Empathy: Nature’s Lessons for a Kinder Society. New York: Harmony.

Boyd, R. 2006. The puzzle of human sociality. Science 314:1555–56.

Langergraber, K. E., J. C. Mitani, and L. Vigilant. 2007. The limited impact of kinship on cooperation in wild chimpanzees. Proceedings of the Academy of Sciences USA 104:7786–90.

National Academies of Sciences and Engineering, Keck Futures Initiative Conference, Irvine, CA, November 2014.

Janmaat, K. R. L., L. Polansky, S. D. Ban, and C. Boesch. 2014. Wild chimpanzees plan their breakfast time, type, and location. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA 111:16343–48.

Tan, J., and B. Hare. 2013. Bonobos share with strangers. PloS ONE 8:e51922.

Horner, V., D. J. Carter, M. Suchak, and F. B. M. de Waal, 2011. Spontaneous prosocial choice by chimpanzees. Proceedings of the Academy of Sciences USA 108:13847–51.

Koski, Sonja E. E. H. M Sterck. 2009. Empathic chimpanzees: A proposal of the levels of emotional and cognitive processing in chimpanzee empathy. European Journal of Developmental Psychology. Vol 7:38-66.

De Waal, Frans. 2008. Putting the Altruism Back into Altruism: The Evolution of Empathy. Annual Review of Psychology. Vol. 59:279-300

Andrews K. 2012. Do Apes read minds? Toward a New Folk Psychology. Cambridge, MA: MIT press

Caruso, C. 2016. Chimps May Be Capable of Comprehending the Minds of Others. Scientific American

Now you are just dumping, a strategy intended not to convince, but to simply overwhelm your opponent so that they will give up. tsk tsk.

How about give me just one really good study that is online, so that I can read it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Now you are just dumping, a strategy intended not to convince, but to simply overwhelm your opponent so that they will give up. tsk tsk.

How about give me just one really good study that is online, so that I can read it.

Erm, no. You asked for THE STUDIES that Wild Fox was referring to and said you would read them.

"Origin of the Species" is Theistic

No fallacy was committed by Wild Fox giving you the things you asked for. The fallacy is instead committed by you - moving the goalposts. That is blatant dishonesty.

 

[Bear Wild]

You can have these things functioning on an intuitive level, no reasoning necessary.

First a definition for reason - the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way. the process of forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. the act or process of drawing conclusions from facts, evidence. In chimpanzees the dominant male is not always the largest or the strongest. it is the male that makes the best alliances with other males and even with the dominant female. This requires the chimpanzee especially if weaker than the others to know the individuals and which ones would be the most appropriate or willing to make an alliance. This takes a brain operating in a logical sensible way forming conclusions, judgements and inferences from facts or premises. This requires reasoning since without careful analysis of action it can be very dangerous to try to be the dominant male without support. Chimpanzee social behavior is quite complex and there are many studies documenting the complex interactions but I have included only one that can be found in a pdf file to read.
Foster, M. W., et al. 2009. Alpha male chimpanzee grooming patterns: Implications for dominance “style.” American Journal of Primatology 71:136–44.

 

[Bear Wild]

A study could document guilt, for example. This is just off the top of my head -- I'm not giving it the kind of time I'd give it if I were actually planning it as an actual study. But we know that chimps have a sense of justice, since they get all upset when they are treated unjustly. So you could create opportunities for chimps to behave justly to other chimps. Divide them into two groups depending on whether they respond justly or not. Then record some sort of measure of distress or sadness, and compare the two groups. If the group that did not respond justly has a higher measure of distress or sadness than the group that responded justly, it may indicate guilt. (By the way, it will be hard to find chimps that behave justly.) There would need to be many studies along these lines that would use different measurement of distress/sadness, both behavioral and biological.

Please explain why you say it would be hard to find chimps that behave justly. Evidence for recognition of equality of food consumption has been found in Chimpanzees, Bonobos and monkeys. The first in my list (which available to read at reaearchgate.net.) is about capuchin monkeys and food sharing. Now if you think because this article is about monkeys and want one just on chimpanzees I will look for one available but this one I know is available on the internet. If you want one specific to chimpanzees or bonobos I will look for one easily available on the internet. Most studies so far show more similar behavioral patterns of apes with humans than monkeys but here is a single start.
Hattori, Y., K. Leimgruber, K. Fujita, and F. B. M. de Waal. 2012. Food-related tolerance in capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) varies with knowledge of the partner’s previous food-consumption. Behaviour 149:171–85.
www.researchgate.net/publication/261975242_Food related_tolerance_in_capuchin_monkeys_Cebus_apella_varies_with_knowledge_of_the_partner's_previous_food-consumption

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Erm, no. You asked for THE STUDIES that Wild Fox was referring to and said you would read them.
.

It is implied that I meant internet sites, and you and he both know it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

First a definition for reason - the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way. the process of forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. the act or process of drawing conclusions from facts, evidence. In chimpanzees the dominant male is not always the largest or the strongest. it is the male that makes the best alliances with other males and even with the dominant female. This requires the chimpanzee especially if weaker than the others to know the individuals and which ones would be the most appropriate or willing to make an alliance. This takes a brain operating in a logical sensible way forming conclusions, judgements and inferences from facts or premises. This requires reasoning since without careful analysis of action it can be very dangerous to try to be the dominant male without support. Chimpanzee social behavior is quite complex and there are many studies documenting the complex interactions but I have included only one that can be found in a pdf file to read.
Foster, M. W., et al. 2009. Alpha male chimpanzee grooming patterns: Implications for dominance “style.” American Journal of Primatology 71:136–44.

You haven't shown how chimpanzees use reasoning to form moral decision making either before a behavior, or to reflect on it after.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please explain why you say it would be hard to find chimps that behave justly.

It's quite possible that new information has come to light. However, the most recent information I have read, which continued to repeat the information I learned at the university, stated that chimps did not care if another chimp was treated unjustly. Let me give you a scenario. It was originally done with Capuchin monkeys but was repeated with chimps. Chimp Joe and Chimp Jay are in adjoining cages. They have been taught that if they exchange a rock they will get a treat. The lab worker comes in, and both chimps go to it. The worker begins by rewarding both with cucumber slices (which are mostly water). Everyone is happy and content. But then things change. In the next round, the worker rewards Chimp Joe with a grape (a much sweeter and heartier treat) and still gives Chimp Jay a cucumber slice. Chimp Jay now feels cheated and throws the cucumber slice out of the cage. He'll have none of it! It's not fare!!! Now, here is the question: is there any indication that Chimp Joe gives a squat about the unfairness to Chimp Jay? Does he go over to comfort Jay? Does he set aside one of his grapes and share it? Absolutely not. Chimps only care about justice when its concerns themselves. At least, that is true to the best of my knowledge.

Here is website that not only has the Capuchin video, but also discusses a followup study where chimps were used instead, and it was repeated a second time using a mechanical feeder. The food refusal was severe when the food was given by a live lab assistant, meaning that the chimp understood that the inequity was do to a moral agent. Again, you see no sign of compassion or sharing from the second chimp.
Do chimpanzees really care about equity? - International Cognition and Culture Institute