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"Origin of the Species" is Theistic

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
........until someone comes to the village, bringing the good news...... and patiently explains what a square is. Some or maybe everyone, will eventually learn that a ball is definitely not square.
But that doesn't work. The only thing one could hope for is to reprogram someone to thinking and perceiving through a different program. For the most part, you will appear as wrong to them, as they appear to be to you. You're both doing the same thing.

Then, some would go to the neighboring village, and impart what they've just learned. Before you know it, they'll all know what a square is.
No. What would happen is that they would eventually all call a square what you call it. It could have gone the other direction too, that they sent their proselytizing misters to convert your thinking about balls as square, instead of your mistaken ideas they are round. Then they would say as you now have, "Finally, they now know the truth of what "round" means!"

Boy, it's like long-lost tribes and missionaries, isn't it? :)
Yes, it surely is. Each trying to convert each other to their own views of reality as the true truth of what it is. This is what relativism is all about. Pointing out how each thinks the way think is what is the way things really are.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So why should anyone think a mutation is random?

...It tells me nothing is random.

How Many Genetic Mutations Do I Have?
When parents pass their genes down to their children, an average of 60 errors are introduced to the genetic code in the process, according to a new study. Any of those five dozen mutations could be the source of major differences in a person's appearance or behavior as compared to his or her parents and altogether, the mistakes are the driving force of evolution.​

So, yes. Random.
 

tosca1

Member



How do you know it was a testimony if it was recited 100 years ago by a person who is long dead and gone? Have you gotten this information by communicating with the dead?

How do I know? LOGIC!

If people were giving their testimonies in the Bible - why would it be any stretch to assume it's being done by others?


Have the people who gave testimony about their personal experience with Allah convinced you that Islam is the True religion?

Let's not drift too far.

You stated that personal experiences are the ultimate evidence for GOD. So, I'll ask again, are the personal experiences people had with Allah or Shiva evidence that Allah and Shiva are true Gods?

Of course not. While I may believe that they've had an experience with an entity that calls itself "God" - I do know that it can't be the Biblical God.

How do I know? LOGIC!

For one thing - you're asking a Christian!
A Christian who have been warned against the wiles of Satan and false teachings!

What are their doctrines? Are they Biblical?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What? You think testimonies are just modern-day fad?
You think testimonies weren't being given all the way back in history? By people, now dead and gone?

You think a testimony has to be written? A testimony has to be recited in front of a group of people?
A testimony has to be made into a book, for it to count?

If I tell you privately, how I found God or what God had done to make me the way I am today - that is a testimony!
Fair enough, but it is still quite the jump to talk about "billions" of testimonies.

Between the historical population levels and the comparative rarity of actual testimonies even inside the groups that nominally adhere to the appicable creeds, it is highly doubtful that we ever arrived anywhere near an actual billion during the whole of human history, even adding all generations together.
 

tosca1

Member
But that doesn't work. The only thing one could hope for is to reprogram someone to thinking and perceiving through a different program. For the most part, you will appear as wrong to them, as they appear to be to you. You're both doing the same thing.


No. What would happen is that they would eventually all call a square what you call it. It could have gone the other direction too, that they sent their proselytizing misters to convert your thinking about balls as square, instead of your mistaken ideas they are round. Then they would say as you now have, "Finally, they now know the truth of what "round" means!"


Yes, it surely is. Each trying to convert each other to their own views of reality as the true truth of what it is. This is what relativism is all about. Pointing out how each thinks the way think is what is the way things really are.

Well, it's not really missionaries, or us who convert people.
It is God.

That's why there are so many, many testimonies about non-believers who got transformed, by what they testify as their personal experience with God.

There. We just did a full circle.
 

tosca1

Member
Fair enough, but it is still quite the jump to talk about "billions" of testimonies.

Between the historical population levels and the comparative rarity of actual testimonies even inside the groups that nominally adhere to the appicable creeds, it is highly doubtful that we ever arrived anywhere near an actual billion during the whole of human history, even adding all generations together.

Don't forget that people died from war and plagues, too in the old days. But that doesn't mean, no one who died from those wars and illness hadn't given any testimony.


The one billion mark was reached in the early 1800s. In the next one hundred years the population doubled to 2 billion, and in 1960 there were 3 billion people living on earth.

The second half of the 20th century brought along some change :
  • In Europe , North America, Japan and Australia the birth rate dropped because families wanted to have fewer children. Population growth in these areas slowed down .
  • In the developing countries of Asia and Africa birth rates stayed high and better medical help in these regions lowered the death rates. That is why these countries are growing very rapidly .
In the last 30 years the world’s population has doubled.
World Population | From The Beginning s to the Present Day


Anyway, today - how many Christians are there, worldwide?

More than 2 billion. So - add the dead ones too, all the way back!


Essential Stats and Facts About Christianity Today
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Some of them were passionate atheists who deliberately went to do their research to DEBUNK CHRISTANITY!
Many of them not only ended up believing in the existence of God - they also converted to Christianity!
Some of them didn't just become Christians - they turned around and had become activists for Christianity!
James Tour, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel, etc are just some of the current names I could think of right now.


William Lane Craig - WikipediaWilliam Lane Craig is an American analytic philosopher and Christian theologian. He holds faculty positions at Talbot School of Theology and Houston Baptist University. Craig has developed and defended the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God.​

James Tour

Therefore, in light of my Constitutional first amendment freedom to believe and testify of my beliefs in a manner unhindered by any governmental order, let’s begin. Based upon my study of the scriptures, which I have studied more than any other topic in my life, including chemistry, I believe:

  1. The Bible is the inspired word of God. Faithful Jewish scholars have preserved the Old Testament through the ages and it is an accurate account of God’s dealing with mankind, and more specifically, with the Jewish people. The New Testament, particularly the record in the four Gospels, is based upon eye-witnessed historical accounts that are accurate beyond compare to any historical documents of their time.[1]

About | Lee Strobel
Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel is the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune and best-selling author of more than twenty books. His classic, The Case for Christ, is a perennial favorite which details his conversion to Christianity. His recent release, The Case for Grace, won the 2016 Nonfiction Book of the Year from the EPCA.


So, some atheists became religious. What's your point? None of the three you mentioned stated very much, if anything, about when they were atheists and how/why they converted.

Would you like me to list atheists who did not become evangelical Christians?

Most of the atheists posting in this forum were once religious. Again, What's your point?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Christians are not the only ones who do that. The atheists I've encountered take great joy in doing that with theists. They write entire books to that end, with such titles as "The God Delusion". You've heard of it, I assume?


There is no "tone" to my posts, except when you make it necessary for me to get you off of personal attacks, which is what you repeatedly devolve into in this and other posts whenever your arguments fall flat, which happen rather quickly. I'm actually quite generous in not reporting you each time you violate the forum rules when you do this.


Please point to any personal attack I made upon you. That I disagreed with your thoughts and pointed those out, is not a personal attack. I didn't say you are only saying what you say because your mindlessness follow what you were trained to believe, and that you were massaging your ego. That's what you introduced. That is what you said about me.

That is all a projection on your part, accusing the other of doing what it is in fact you are doing in order to make it about them and take the focus of yourself. Again, point to where I made it a personal attack. Quote the words. I only started focusing on that following you attacking me personally as "massaging my ego".


There is no personal tirade. I am trying to point this out to you in discussion that you turned this into a personal attack, and it is irrational, uncalled for, unfounded, insulting, and a forum rules violation.

Perhaps I believe if I reasoned with you, reason would prevail, and I could avoid the heavy hand of hitting the report button. I hope reason will prevail. Perhaps, that's is my error. I'll just report you, and encourage others to do the same until you understand.

Some Christians attempt to deny other faith faithful their faith because they dont worship the same way. I have never seen an atheist try to deny another atheist their atheism.

There is absolutely a tone to your posts. Everyone (unless they are faking) unconsciously shows some of their personality in what they write. Look, you started the personal attack. you dont like the result us not my problem, w can solve this right now by putting each other on ignore... Or perhaps you stop telling me what i think.

You stated "So you're saying ..." In an attempt to change the meaning of what i wrote to suite your own agenda.

Btw, your ego is nor mindless, it is the underlying you, methinks you are putting too much incredulity on something you appear not to understand.

No personal tirade??? Let me quote

when your argument gets deflated. Always a sign of a weak position. When I hear that card pulled out of the deck, I know the person is now operating in personal defensive mode, which is in fact completely about the ego defending itself, and not the argument.​

That one finger pointing at others supposed ego, is pointing three back at yourself and your own, and that becomes obvious to the observer. You had no argument, and this is the dying gasps of that.​

There was no argument on my side yet you attempted to imply there was and that you had deflated it.
Then you went into hyperbole about cards in attempt to poison my ego (that you appear not to understand)
Then attempt to twist my reply to be 3 times worse than yours.
Then you go into misinformation about arguments and insult what doesnt exist.

It seems to be a tactic of yours, at least 3 times we have crossed swords and you fall back onto incredulity as a copout for failed discussion.
 

tosca1

Member
William Lane Craig - WikipediaWilliam Lane Craig is an American analytic philosopher and Christian theologian. He holds faculty positions at Talbot School of Theology and Houston Baptist University. Craig has developed and defended the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God.​

James Tour

Therefore, in light of my Constitutional first amendment freedom to believe and testify of my beliefs in a manner unhindered by any governmental order, let’s begin. Based upon my study of the scriptures, which I have studied more than any other topic in my life, including chemistry, I believe:

  1. The Bible is the inspired word of God. Faithful Jewish scholars have preserved the Old Testament through the ages and it is an accurate account of God’s dealing with mankind, and more specifically, with the Jewish people. The New Testament, particularly the record in the four Gospels, is based upon eye-witnessed historical accounts that are accurate beyond compare to any historical documents of their time.[1]

About | Lee Strobel
Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel is the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune and best-selling author of more than twenty books. His classic, The Case for Christ, is a perennial favorite which details his conversion to Christianity. His recent release, The Case for Grace, won the 2016 Nonfiction Book of the Year from the EPCA.


So, some atheists became religious. What's your point? None of the three you mentioned stated very much, if anything, about when they were atheists and how/why they converted.


William lane Craig:



James Tour:



Lee Strobel:






Would you like me to list atheists who did not become evangelical Christians?

What's your point? Read my previous post again.


Most of the atheists posting in this forum were once religious. Again, What's your point?

So what? We're not counting heads here.
My point? TESTIMONIES! From high-profile people with credibility!
Well - I may be confusing you with someone else when i said "testimonies." Just read my post again.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
William Lane Craig - WikipediaWilliam Lane Craig is an American analytic philosopher and Christian theologian. He holds faculty positions at Talbot School of Theology and Houston Baptist University. Craig has developed and defended the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God.​

James Tour

Therefore, in light of my Constitutional first amendment freedom to believe and testify of my beliefs in a manner unhindered by any governmental order, let’s begin. Based upon my study of the scriptures, which I have studied more than any other topic in my life, including chemistry, I believe:

  1. The Bible is the inspired word of God. Faithful Jewish scholars have preserved the Old Testament through the ages and it is an accurate account of God’s dealing with mankind, and more specifically, with the Jewish people. The New Testament, particularly the record in the four Gospels, is based upon eye-witnessed historical accounts that are accurate beyond compare to any historical documents of their time.[1]

About | Lee Strobel
Atheist-turned-Christian Lee Strobel is the former award-winning legal editor of The Chicago Tribune and best-selling author of more than twenty books. His classic, The Case for Christ, is a perennial favorite which details his conversion to Christianity. His recent release, The Case for Grace, won the 2016 Nonfiction Book of the Year from the EPCA.


So, some atheists became religious. What's your point? None of the three you mentioned stated very much, if anything, about when they were atheists and how/why they converted.

Would you like me to list atheists who did not become evangelical Christians?

Most of the atheists posting in this forum were once religious. Again, What's your point?

A point made is that IF any scientist set out
to "disprove christianity"* then they were
not setting out to do science, because of the
extreme bias of a predetermined goal /
conclusion. That is not science, but it sure
is intellectual dishonesty.

IF there were such "scientists" a point not made,
and IF any of them then went and became
"christians" , well, they would fit right in, especially
as it is smply impossible to be an educated and
honest creationist.

*It is impossible to disprove Christianity
as such, as it plainly exists. Weird n wacky
fundy ideas such as are an embarrassment to
thoughtful xians often, of course,can be
falsified / disproved.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That does not translate into not believing in God. Great many numbers of people don't believe that either, yet believe God exists.
From what I gather Darwin's view seems to be same as Steven Hawkings or Carl Sagon. A metaphorical philosophical 'God'.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
What is your problem with randomness?

It was probably a chance random occurrence for your father to meet your mother. Your father injected about 200 million sperm into your mother. One of those sperm got into your mother's egg and the result is you.

You are the product of randomness.

Or did chemical reactions in my fathers brain attract him to my mother, who in turn, had similar chemical reactions at that exact same moment in time...

...With my life, more chemical reactions maybe took place at certain moments in time? where sperm cells were released by more reactions, and forced my sperm cell to the egg in time?

If all these reactions could be identified and measured and calculated in a super-computer, it could possibly be recreated?

Of course, the human mind is limited in knowing all the forces and reactions involved, but never the less, they did occur, and therefore, could be calculated.

66 million years ago a big meteor struck in the Yucatan. The result was the extinction of 75% of plant and animal species. The meteor hitting earth was a pretty random event.

What is your problem with randomness?

The meteor was created by forces and reactions, and struck the earth due to it's trajectory in time.

Could have all been calculated had one the knowledge of all the forces and reactions involved beforehand.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I see nothing random anywhere in the universe.

...If it's predictable, it can't be random. And everything seems predictable with math.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Believe it or not, faith in Christianity is based on critical thinking.

How can it not be? When it's repeatedly written in the Scriptures that we are supposed to discern?
A magic man in the sky made everything happen 6000 years ago. Hm, let me think about that critically...
Let's weigh the evidence:
Pro:
The Scriptures were written 4000 years ago based on the knowledge, hopes and aspirations of a religious sect of Jews.​
Con:
None of the major events written about have any evidence to suggest they are true. All of the major events written about have a lot of evidence to show they are false.​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
What is your problem with randomness?

It was probably a chance random occurrence for your father to meet your mother. Your father injected about 200 million sperm into your mother. One of those sperm got into your mother's egg and the result is you.

You are the product of randomness.

66 million years ago a big meteor struck in the Yucatan. The result was the extinction of 75% of plant and animal species. The meteor hitting earth was a pretty random event.

What is your problem with randomness?
Or did chemical reactions in my fathers brain attract him to my mother, who in turn, had similar chemical reactions at that exact same moment in time...

Both of whom had to be at the same place at the same time in order for your "predictable" chemical reactions to occur. More below.

...With my life, more chemical reactions maybe took place at certain moments in time? where sperm cells were released by more reactions, and forced my sperm cell to the egg in time?
I in 200 million. Would not have happened if mom had a headache. Would not have happened if dad had a slip and fall and injured his back. Etc Etc

If all these reactions could be identified and measured and calculated in a super-computer, it could possibly be recreated?

I'm glad you put a "?" at the end of that. Taking just one factor:
Your father's sperm causing you. 1 in 200 million
Your grandfather's sperm causing your father. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million

In just 6 generations we have 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000.

How many generations back to Noah? Maybe polymath can supply an answer.

Of course, the human mind is limited in knowing all the forces and reactions involved, but never the less, they did occur, and therefore, could be calculated.

See above. Then, if you are still not convinced, add in all chance encounters, add in all accidents that did and did not happen.


The meteor was created by forces and reactions, and struck the earth due to it's trajectory in time.

Could have all been calculated had one the knowledge of all the forces and reactions involved beforehand.

Yes, let's add the precise timing, location and angle of the meteor strike to the variables above.

But I suppose if one believes in predestination it must be because he was predestined to believe in predestination.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I see nothing random anywhere in the universe.

...If it's predictable, it can't be random. And everything seems predictable with math.

Let's, for the sake of discussion, say that you are correct. How does that help you to know when I am going to respond to your next post?

How does supposing that someday a supercomputer the size of Jupiter can know everything in advance affect your daily life?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some Christians attempt to deny other faith faithful their faith because they dont worship the same way. I have never seen an atheist try to deny another atheist their atheism.
But they are trying to deny theists their faith in favor of their own. It's not any different.

There is absolutely a tone to your posts. Everyone (unless they are faking) unconsciously shows some of their personality in what they write.
If I were to stand back and look at the tone of my posts in general I'd say they may have a tone of authoritativeness in how I put things. And as part of that I probably show less tolerance for nonsense. That's the atheist inside of me, all rational, knowledgeable, articulate, etc. That can seem "cold" perhaps to some.

Look, you started the personal attack. you dont like the result us not my problem, w can solve this right now by putting each other on ignore... Or perhaps you stop telling me what i think.
BS. I did not start the attack. You blurted out that my thoughts were about me "massaging my ego". That is a personal insult and attack. I did no such thing to you anywhere in what I have posted. I have no interest in attacking you and your personal motives whatever those might be. I couldn't know. That is just simply an ad hominem attack, and anyone who does that shows the world they don't hold any winning cards left in their hand. I did not attack you once, even after you attacked me. I did however report that, as I'm tired of you doing this with me. It's not the first time. But I trust it will be the last.

You stated "So you're saying ..." In an attempt to change the meaning of what i wrote to suite your own agenda.
I don't know the context of this right now. If I said something like that, I'm trying to reframe it in a way that fits another way of looking at it, putting a different face on it than the one you may have been hoping will make your case for you. I don't know for sure here.

Btw, your ego is nor mindless, it is the underlying you, methinks you are putting too much incredulity on something you appear not to understand.
I am extremely knowledgeable about the ego. I understand the way it works, the stages of development it goes through, it's role in our basic functioning, and all that. I would surmise with some confidence, I probably know more about it as a subject of understanding than you do.

However, you saying me "massaging my ego", is not talking about any of that. That's a particular insulting phrase that anyone says to another when they want to dismiss what they are saying, by making it personal about them. You may as well say I'm just "jerking off" my ego. It's the exact same thing and meaning. I'm not stupid, and neither is everyone else.

No personal tirade??? Let me quote

when your argument gets deflated. Always a sign of a weak position. When I hear that card pulled out of the deck, I know the person is now operating in personal defensive mode, which is in fact completely about the ego defending itself, and not the argument.​

That one finger pointing at others supposed ego, is pointing three back at yourself and your own, and that becomes obvious to the observer. You had no argument, and this is the dying gasps of that.​

There was no argument on my side yet you attempted to imply there was and that you had deflated it.
Everything I said there was not about your argument. It was about your behavior in attacking me instead of presenting arguments. I was telling you how such tactics cannot and will not fly by me, and then someone turning around and attempting to claim it was me doing it? I'm suspecting a pattern of something I'm familiar with known as Gaslighting someone. It won't work with me.

Then you went into hyperbole about cards in attempt to poison my ego (that you appear not to understand)
Yeah, I don't know what you mean. Correct. It was not "hyperbole", which is an exaggeration. It was a metaphor. It's a common metaphor with a poker reference, "He's not holding many cards in his hand". It's commonly applied to debates where one person says to the other, "I can tell by the style of debate here, restorting to personal attacks instead of arguments, that you don't have many cards (of point count) in your hand". It's saying they are acting that way because they don't have any arguments left.

If you mean to say me pointing out that I don't believe you really can support your arguments as me "attempting to poison your ego", I honestly don't know what to say to that. I would hope you would instead show some integrity and admit you don't have good arguments, instead of trying to make it sounds like I'm trying to "poison" your self worth. Perhaps you'd do better avoiding online discussions if you think that's what others are trying to do to you? That would be something only you would be doing to yourself.

Then attempt to twist my reply to be 3 times worse than yours.
You started with a personal attack, and I responded to that behavior, when you denied it, as you are now. You then belittle that as me having a "diatribe", etc. All of that is what one sees in gaslighting behaviors, I'm seeing for myself.

Anyway, I'm not going to say anymore to this if you're not going to accept responsibility. I don't wish to waste my time with someone who habitually sinks to personal attacks, and turns all subsequent discussion away from the topic to talk about how I have victimized them. Again, avoiding the topic through introducing personal attack to begin with. Mission accomplished.

I am not attacking you personally, when I disagree with your thinking on these subjects. Saying to me I am just "massaging my ego" is attacking me personally.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Both of whom had to be at the same place at the same time in order for your "predictable" chemical reactions to occur. More below.


I in 200 million. Would not have happened if mom had a headache. Would not have happened if dad had a slip and fall and injured his back. Etc Etc



I'm glad you put a "?" at the end of that. Taking just one factor:
Your father's sperm causing you. 1 in 200 million
Your grandfather's sperm causing your father. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million

In just 6 generations we have 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000.

How many generations back to Noah? Maybe polymath can supply an answer.



See above. Then, if you are still not convinced, add in all chance encounters, add in all accidents that did and did not happen.




Yes, let's add the precise timing, location and angle of the meteor strike to the variables above.

But I suppose if one believes in predestination it must be because he was predestined to believe in predestination.

Predestination you say? That's ironic you mention that considering that I am the one arguing for science, and you for mysterious "random" uncalculable phenomenas.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Both of whom had to be at the same place at the same time in order for your "predictable" chemical reactions to occur. More below.


I in 200 million. Would not have happened if mom had a headache. Would not have happened if dad had a slip and fall and injured his back. Etc Etc



I'm glad you put a "?" at the end of that. Taking just one factor:
Your father's sperm causing you. 1 in 200 million
Your grandfather's sperm causing your father. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million
Etc. 1 in 200 million

In just 6 generations we have 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000 * 1 in 200,000,000.

How many generations back to Noah? Maybe polymath can supply an answer.



See above. Then, if you are still not convinced, add in all chance encounters, add in all accidents that did and did not happen.




Yes, let's add the precise timing, location and angle of the meteor strike to the variables above.

But I suppose if one believes in predestination it must be because he was predestined to believe in predestination.

Slips, falls, headaches, timing and low odds you say..? All predictable, claculable chemical and physical actions and reactions on a mass scale...

It's just nobody, and no thing has the capacity to do all the math and realize all the variables involved. But that doesn’t make it impossible. Rather, it is possible, and could be done mathematically.
 
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