Original copy of the characters of the "golden plates"

[BUDDY]

Third row and fifth character from the left is a lambda sign. Similar character in the row above, but not quite as clear.

 

[FFH]

Sorry to bring this discussion back to the copy of the plates, but I was wondering, how was the copy made? I don't think they had Xerox copiers back then, so was this a rubbing, or was it an artists rendering of what he saw when he looked at the plates?

Also, what is the Mormon explanation for why the plates themselves have never been found. I appears that Joseph Smith claimed them to exist on Earth within the last couple hundred years, yet the plates themselves have never been made public.

In fact this is the first time I have seen or heard of a copy having been made.

B.

Martin Harris hand copied these characters from the original golden plates, which were translated into the Book of Mormon. This hand copied document of the original text of the golden plates was given to Dr. Charles Anthon, with it's corresponding translation into English. Charles Anthon verified the writings and the corresponding translation as correct and true. Anthon later denied his first statement after finding out the origin of the copied characters. He did not know the characters had been copied from the golden plates which had been found by Joseph Smith in a Hill called Camora in Palmyra, New York. After Anthon discovered that these golden plates were found by Joseph Smith he promptly wrote a second statement denouncing his first statement. He was worried about his reputaion as a highly respected professor at Columbia College now known as Columbia University.

After the plates were translated into English they were taken from the earth by Angel Moroni, who was a prominent character and contributed to the writings of the golden plates, which were translated and included in the Book of Mormon. This is why we have no other proof, other than this document that I have posted, that the plates ever existed, other than testimonies of those that actually saw the plates while they were on the earth. If someone knows of any other proof that the golden plates existed, I would like them to find it and post it here. I doubt that anyone does.

 

[Solon]

Fourth row down and three characters in is the symbol "chi" which is used in the simplified version of Japanese. This simplified version of Japanese writing is called "hirigana". I am sure that the Japanese and Chinese borrowed many of their symbols or characters from the Egytians.

That statement is absolute rubbish. Where on earth do you get these insights from ? That text is nonsense, from start to finish. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any Egyptian script, which regarding any knowledge of, you don't have any.

The Japanese and Chinese borrowed their symbols from the Egyptians,

Please, if haven't got anything better to offer, don't bother.

Thanks

Solon

 

[Popeyesays]

The point I was trying to make is that this is a simplified or reformed version of Egyptian, which seems to match up a bit with the Japanese simplified version of Kanji, which is similar to the Egyptian style of writing. Writing with pictures and symbols. A simplified or reformed version of Egyptian. This fits into the description that Martin Harris got from Charles Anthon about the golden plates. It would have been easy for Lehi and Nephi to write and read these characters. It could be easily taught. A shorthand version of Egytian with Chaldaic, Arabic and Syriac influences or writings possibly mixed in.

Egyptian hieroglyphics are not really pictographs at all. They are tied to prounced syllables - so it is phonetic.

Chinese is not phonetic, it is pictographic. This is why people speaking Han, Cantonese, Mandarin can all read the same pictographs and understand it in languages that do not sound much alike.

That Chinese script came from Egyptian hieroglyphs is a silly notion. This is proved by the fact that Egyptian is phonetic and Chinese is not.

Wny would the missing tribes of Israel read or write in anything other than Hebrew?

Regards,
Scott

 

[FFH]

So 12 people saw the plates before they were transported off the planet? 12 disciples? 12 plate viewers, is this a coincidence? Thanks for the explanation regarding the whereabouts of the plates, I had not heard that before. B.

You are very intelligent. This theory that you have suggested is exactly true. I don't know if anyone else caught what you just insinuated. Truely the golden plates were taken up into heaven after being translated into the Book of Mormon, which is another witness that Jesus Christ came to earth and rose again after being crucified. The golden plates and their writings testified of Jesus Christ and his divinity. The plates were later taken into heaven, by Angel Moroni, which is symbolic of Jesus Christ ascending into heaven after he taught and performed miracles and was crucified in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to the people in the Americas, as well as those in Jarusalem, after his death and resurrection. This is all documented in the Book of Mormon as another witness to be held in equal authority with the Old and New Testament of Jesus Christ, the Bible.

 

[Solon]

Yes, but your book of mormon is a fiction, Angel Moroni, lol, who thought that one up ? And how can theory be true? A theory is a theory, which means it is unproven. LOL.

S

 

[jonny]

So 12 people saw the plates before they were transported off the planet? 12 disciples? 12 plate viewers, is this a coincidence? Thanks for the explanation regarding the whereabouts of the plates, I had not heard that before.

B.

Joseph Smith's wife handled the plates, but always under a cloth which she had prepared for them. She described that they felt like thin sheets of metal under the cloth. Peter Whitmer's mother also claimed she was also shown the plates by an angel because of her involvment in the translation (much of which occured in her home).

 

[Popeyesays]

You are very intelligent. This theory that you have suggested is exactly true. I don't know if anyone else caught what you just insinuated. Truely the golden plates were taken up into heaven after being translated into the Book of Mormon, which is another witness that Jesus Christ came to earth and rose again after being crucified. The golden plates and their writings testified of Jesus Christ and his divinity. The plates were later taken into heaven, by Angel Moroni, which is symbolic of Jesus Christ ascending into heaven after he taught and performed miracles and was crucified in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to the people in the Americas, as well as those in Jarusalem, after his death and resurrection. This is all documented in the Book of Mormon as another witness to be held in equal authority with the Old and New Testament of Jesus Christ, the Bible.

I would point out that your statement is not a logical argument, it is an article of faith. We are all welcome to our own articles of faith, but presenting them as logical arguments rationally derived from premise to conclusion like a syllogism is not going to convince another.

Regards,
Scott

 

[jonny]

This is all irrelevant. You can find recognizable characters in a Jackson Pollock painting or passing cumulus cloud.

I want to know where this photo came from. The original plates were presumably lost or destroyed.
As Mark Twain would put it, I suspect taffy is being distributed....

This document is owned by the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of JC of LDS or RLDS). David Whitmer owned the manuscript and said that it was what was shown to Anthon, although it does not fit the description that Anthon gave of the manuscript (which he said was written in vertical columns, not horizontal rows). There is evidence that suggests that Martin Harris had more than one piece of paper, so who knows. The RLDS church claims that these were written on the same type of paper as the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon.

Copies of these characters were first published in 1844, just after the murder of Joseph Smith.

Here is some information on the history of this document:
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=188

 

[FFH]

Egyptian hieroglyphics are not really pictographs at all. They are tied to prounced syllables - so it is phonetic.

Chinese is not phonetic, it is pictographic. This is why people speaking Han, Cantonese, Mandarin can all read the same pictographs and understand it in languages that do not sound much alike.

That Chinese script came from Egyptian hieroglyphs is a silly notion. This is proved by the fact that Egyptian is phonetic and Chinese is not.

Wny would the missing tribes of Israel read or write in anything other than Hebrew?

Regards,
Scott

I understand what you are saying completely and you have made a very good point. My earlier posts have made comparisons with the original text and the Japanese style of writing called "hirigana" and "katakana" which are both phonetic and not pictographic styles of writing. They are only symbols representing a sound like "chi" or "ki". There are no Japanese "kanji" in this document that I have posted. Kanji is pictographic and not phoenetic. Hirigana and Katakan are phoenetic not pictographic. Hirigana is used to sound out Japanese kanji and is also used with various verbs to describe past or future tense. Hirigana is also used with adjectives. It is strictly phoenetic and not pictographic. Katakana is used to sound out and spell foreign words. At least two examples of both hirigana and katakana are found in this text that I have posted in the exact form that it used today in Japan. Look it up yourself and compare. Some are written the exact same way that they are written today and some are similar.

 

[Jaymes]

And these were both made no less than EIGHT CENTURIES after the fall of ancient Egypt. It is pure folly to suggest that it arose from heiroglyphics.

 

[FFH]

The Japanese and Chinese use the same style of writing as the Egyptians. They use a combination of more complex symbols or pictures, representing a whole word, in combination with very simple symbols, which represent a vowel or a consonant or a combination of both. For example the symbol for love would be pronounced "ai" with a complex symbol, as represented in my avatar. This is the symbol for love. If a child, or foreigner, learning this Japanese symbol, wanted to know the pronunciation he or she would spell it out with two simple symbols and sound it out using two vowels, "a" and "i", and would write the corresponding symbols. Hirigana would be used to spell and sound out "ai", or love in Japanese. This way a child, or a foreigner, learning Japanese could communicate in a written form, and speak the language, until he or she could write and read, with proficiency, the complete and more complex symbol for Love, "ai". The many various complex symbols would take years to master and many of them would not be learned in one lifetime, just as there are many words that we have not mastered the meaning of.

 

[FFH]

Japanese and Chinese symbols try to incorporate a picture of what they are trying to describe using a symbol. As you look at the Egytian text, that I have posted, it appears that some of the symbols represent an actual object, like a boat, or a tree, or they represent a principle. You get the idea.

 

[Popeyesays]

Japanese and Cinese symbols try to incorporate a picture of what they are trying to describe with the symbol. As you look at the Egytian text that I have posted it appears that some of the symbols represent an actual object like a boat or stairs or principle, etc. You get the idea.

I'm sorry, but if you actually knew anything about the Egyptian written language you would know you are wrong.

Sure they started as pictures, but they still have phonetic qualities.

Chinese is not "spelled", there are no letters. Hieroglyphic writing is spelled just like English, because the characters have phonetic values.

You can see it well explained here: http://greatscott.com/hiero/hiero_alpha.html

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jaymes]

The Japanese and Chinese use the same style of writing as the Egyptians.

No, they use the same concept. It's not hard to sit down and think "hey, we can use these symbols to mean these words."

They use a combination of more complex symbols or pictures, representing a whole word, in combination with very simple symbols, which represent a vowel or a consonant or a combination of both.

From what my limited study of Chinese has told me--I'll have to get sixwing to verify this for me, she's taken several years of Chinese--that while the 'clue' symbols within a character can give a hint as to how they're pronounced or what it means, it's not a sure thing. Especially with a tonal language like Chinese.

For example the symbol for love would be pronounced "aiwa" with a complex symbol, as represented in my avatar.

Unless the circle adds a 'wa', I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I'm 99% certain that the hanzi/kanji in your avatar is simply 'ai'; 'to hide something away in the heart and keep it there' would be a better translation, IIRC. Though it does match our concept of love best.

This is the symbol for love. If a child, or foreigner, learning this Japanese symbol, wanted to know the pronunciation he or she would spell it out with two simple symbols and sound it out using two syllables, "ai" and "wa", and would write the corresponding symbols, in order to spell and sound out "aiwa", or love in Japanese. This way a child, or a foreigner, learning Japanese could communicate in a written form, and speak the language, until he or she could write and read, with proficiency, the complete and more complex symbol for Love, "aiwa". The many various complex symbols would take years to master and many of them would not be learned in one lifetime, just as there are many words that we have not mastered the meaning of.

I'm really not sure what that has to do with the Egyptians and Chinese never coming in contact with one another.

 

[FFH]

I should have clarified myself and said that the Japanese and Chinese use the same style of writing as the anceint Egytians. I am not comparing it to modern Egyptian writing. I am sure we can all agree that hieroglyphs originated as symbols of a whole word as well as symbols of consonants and vowels. My point is that the two styles are similar.

 

[FFH]

The circle around the Japanese symbol for love, in my avatar, is just a circle. It is not part of the Kanji or symbol. The circle is not part of this symbol for love, demonstrated in my avatar.

 

[Popeyesays]

I should have clarified myself and said that the Japanese and Chinese use the same style of writing as the anceint Egytians. I am not comparing it to modern Egyptian writing. I am sure we can all agree that hieroglyphs originated as symbols of a whole word as well as symbols of consonants and vowels. My point is that the two styles are similar.

Modern Egyptian writing is in Arabic, not hieroglyphs. Coptic is the name of the old Egyptian language and it is still spoken in parts of Ethiopia. But the alphabet is derived from the Greek, not from the hieroglyph.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/coptic.htm

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jaymes]

Then the hanzi in your avatar is 'ai', not 'aiwa.'

Have you found any evidence that the Chinese and Egyptians ever communicated?

 

[FFH]

Then the hanzi in your avatar is 'ai', not 'aiwa.'

Have you found any evidence that the Chinese and Egyptians ever communicated?

You are right I goofed. I had a stupid brain freeze. The kanji for love is spelled with a hirigana "a" and "i". I goofed big time thanks for correcting me. I told you I was rusty. It's been over 15 years.