Original Sin - a question about it

[Gharib]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

 

[Witch9]

I heard the idea once that the original sin was perpetrated by God.

Creating Man in his own image was an act of vanity.

The sins continued. For example, God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the apple they would die. The serpent told them they would merely have knowledge.

They ate the apple, became aware, and did not die. Serpent spoke truth. God lied.

ent:
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[Hodad]

Shalom!

As I understand it, Adam sinned by eating the fruit he was told not to eat. Because we were all present (in Adam's sperm) then we all too were partakers of that sin.

to witch9...to bad you don't know the Hebrew scriptures found in Genesis.
They don't say man was made in HIS image.
They don't say it was an apple.
The knowledge they obtained was the knowledge of good and evil.
The serpent told them they would be as gods.
They did die, or have been over to there house talking with them lately?

 

[EtuMalku]

You can't understand this concept because it is an irrational and illogical concept.

"As the tradition of a Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetype. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic." - Carl Jung

We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.

It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.

The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'. The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.

....................... from a lecture delivered at a meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine by ROBERT EISLER
First published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4 Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London

 

[InvestigateTruth]

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

It all depends on how the Bible is interpreted. There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly talks about original sin.

i wanted to ask if others had the same view

The Baha'i view doesn't accept the original sin. All people are born innocent originally. Then they have free will to do sin or not.

 

[Witch9]

to bad you don't know the Hebrew scriptures found in Genesis

You're right, I do not "know" the Hebrew scriptures, inasmuchas I cannot read Hebrew. But I have read English translations, and I do mean to use the plural because there are many variations. Is there only one single accepted Hebrew version/edition of the OT?

I know that there are more English translations/versions than you could count on a whole roomful of fingers and toes.

I also know that there are translations which claim "Elohim" was/is a plural word, so that the message was that the gods created Man in their image.

And that some define Elohim as those who came from the sky, which some people suggest means that our civilization was started by visitors from another place.

And that some who have studied scriptures more than I have say there was no concept of virgin birth until someone translated "young woman" as "virgin".

And that the Gospel of Judas paints a different picture than what was included in the Council of Nicea's "Bible". As do the Gnostic gospels generally.

And that every holy book I've read contains messages of value, frequently the same messages presented in different word. For example, most translations of the Sermon on the Mount are excellent guides to what I consider living in right relationship.

And so on and so forth, without end.

There are so many variations that no single version can be proclaimed as "the real one" except by those who adopt it as their own personal one-and-only. Not to mention so many other non-Biblical explanations.

Personally, I am comfortable with The Mystery, the concept that as long as we exist in human form in this dimension, the "truth" is unknown and unknowable. I think that in the real world what is important is learning to live in respectful right relationship with everything else that exists.

This includes respecting others' rights to their own beliefs, with the proviso that respect is not a synonym for accept.

ent:
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Blessed Be

 

[Flankerl]

As I understand it, Adam sinned by eating the fruit he was told not to eat. Because we were all present (in Adam's sperm) then we all too were partakers of that sin.

Such theology is just pure madness. And its also quite sad.

They don't say man was made in HIS image.

Gen. 1:26-27
כו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבְכָל-הָאָרֶץ, וּבְכָל-הָרֶמֶשׂ, הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ.

כז וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ, בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ: זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בָּרָא אֹתָם.


26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

If you read the Jewish scriptures (Ezekiel 18:14-20), it is clear that sin is NOT INHERITED!!!

Simple as that.

Bruce

 

[Wombat]

The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

That's harsh Bruce.....Harsh.

Canard-

Next thing you know you will be having a shot at Cormerant Bakers!-
The Cormorant Baker

Shame!

 

[Hodad]

The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

If you read the Jewish scriptures (Ezekiel 18:14-20), it is clear that sin is NOT INHERITED!!!

Simple as that.

Bruce

You know, I never said I believed in the original sin concept.

And if you read Ezekiel 18:14-20, all it proves is God will show mercy to the son of a sinner who "executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live."

A better verse for disproving this idea might be...

Ezekiel 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

However, I can sorta see where they might get this idea. Verses like...
Exodus 34:7 maintaining faithful love to a thousand [generations], forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave [the guilty] unpunished, bringing the consequences of the fathers' wrongdoing on the children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation.

 

[Mister Emu]

The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

What do you think the doctrine of original sin is?

 

[Katzpur]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

eselam, I have never heard a Christian explain the doctrine of Original Sin this way. I have never heard a Christian say he believes that "God made a mistake." I believe God knew exactly what He was doing when He placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but then He allowed Lucifer to promise them that by eating it, they would become like God himself. Having no "knowledge of good and evil" until they actually ate the fruit, they were in no position to understand that disobeying God fell into the category of "evil." Lucifer's promise sounded pretty darned good to them and they ate the fruit. What they did came as no surprise to God. It wasn't some kind of a glitch in His plan, something He'd overlooked. He knew that it was a necessary first step in getting His Plan rolling, so to speak. Things unfolded exactly as He knew they would.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

What do you think the doctrine of original sin is?

So sorry: is English difficult today?

I just STATED what it is and offered proof (which someone else has amplified since then).

 

[Witch9]

Things unfolded exactly as He knew they would.

So, He knew "His people" would include LGBTs? But we're still abominations? He knew He was creating abominations?

Or does God love us all, and it's only the homophobes who think we're abominations?

I often tell the homophobes that they're wrong about the abomination thing because the Goddess (my label for "God") doesn't make mistakes.

 

[orcel]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

When God asked Adam why He had sinned. Adam tried to pass the blame. It was the woman you gave me that influenced me, Adam said. While Adam tried to blame God it did not work. God punished Man, Woman and the serpent. had God accepted the blame no punishment whould have been necessary.

 

[orcel]

They ate the apple, became aware, and did not die. Serpent spoke truth. God lied.

Looking around I don't see Adam or Eve here, they died. The serpent tricked Adam and Eve into thinking that eating the apple would mean instant death, which it did not.

 

[Mister Emu]

So sorry: is English difficult today?

I just STATED what it is and offered proof

I don't know, is it? I wasn't asking what you thought of the doctrine. If I say original sin exists, what do you think is meant by "original sin"?

I only ask because this:

If you read the Jewish scriptures (Ezekiel 18:14-20), it is clear that sin is NOT INHERITED!!!

Leads me to believe you do not actually understand what original sin is.

 

[Wombat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
The whole "original sin" thing is a canard!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Emu
What do you think the doctrine of original sin is?

So sorry: is English difficult today?

No, it will just take a little longer to prepare...would you like Coffee and toast?

(Just remember Bruce...It's Mister Emu you are talking to and the Emu is much much bigger than the Canard..............more feathers too! )

I just STATED what it is and offered proof (which someone else has amplified since then).

Well....I would have used the term 'identified' rather than "amplified"....-

Canard-Looking like a >very< original sin.

....but I guess that's the difficulty of English today huh?!

All those foreign words keep creeping in.

 

[rusra02]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

It is true that, when questioned by God as to whether he ate from the forbidden tree, Adam replied "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.' (Genesis 3:12) Whatever Adam's motivation for saying what he did, God most definitely did not accept blame for the rebellious conduct of Adam and Eve. Nor did he forgive Adam, who as a perfect man, was guilty of willful sin. He sentenced the couple, saying to Adam "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground. For dust you are, and to dust you will return. (Genesis 3:19) God then expelled the couple from the garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:23)
This sin infected Adam's offspring, like a deadly disease. So, all Adam's descendants came under the sentence of death. A Bible verse says "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) Since we were born in sin, we have a hope that God will forgive us. The Bible speaks about this hope at Romans 6:23; "The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life, by Christ Jesus our lord."
That verse speaks of death as deserved, "wages", but the everlasting life as a "gift" given to obedient ones by God.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I think that the tree is not a tree of knowledge(good &evil)

it's fruit stimulate adam's and eve's inistinct, the inistinct of intercourse between male and female.

this wasn't exit before eating from the tree.

so after eating from it, they strip each other's clothes.

thier eyes opened, which means they started to see thier private parts in a different way.

eve got pregnant , so it became explicit that they had eaten from that tree.

they become eternal, but not them "as adam and eve", mankind who bcamame eternal by begotting each other.

i am not depending on scriptures , it's my personal conclusions.