Original Sin - a question about it

[Katzpur]

So, He knew "His people" would include LGBTs? But we're still abominations? He knew He was creating abominations?

Or does God love us all, and it's only the homophobes who think we're abominations?

I often tell the homophobes that they're wrong about the abomination thing because the Goddess (my label for "God") doesn't make mistakes.

Personally, I believe that God created, knows, and loves all of us -- black cats as well as gold Katz.

 

[Gharib]

eselam, I have never heard a Christian explain the doctrine of Original Sin this way. I have never heard a Christian say he believes that "God made a mistake." I believe God knew exactly what He was doing when He placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but then He allowed Lucifer to promise them that by eating it, they would become like God himself. Having no "knowledge of good and evil" until they actually ate the fruit, they were in no position to understand that disobeying God fell into the category of "evil." Lucifer's promise sounded pretty darned good to them and they ate the fruit. What they did came as no surprise to God. It wasn't some kind of a glitch in His plan, something He'd overlooked. He knew that it was a necessary first step in getting His Plan rolling, so to speak. Things unfolded exactly as He knew they would.

i agree with your post. i was saying the same thing to him. God cannot be God if he makes a mistake, but he kept saying what he did.

thanks Katzpur. i will make my other questions when i have some time.

 

[Gharib]

When God asked Adam why He had sinned. Adam tried to pass the blame. It was the woman you gave me that influenced me, Adam said. While Adam tried to blame God it did not work. God punished Man, Woman and the serpent. had God accepted the blame no punishment whould have been necessary.

does the bible mention Adam wanting to shift the blame? at least the man maybe had this part right.

 

[Gharib]

It is true that, when questioned by God as to whether he ate from the forbidden tree, Adam replied "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.' (Genesis 3:12) Whatever Adam's motivation for saying what he did, God most definitely did not accept blame for the rebellious conduct of Adam and Eve. Nor did he forgive Adam, who as a perfect man, was guilty of willful sin. He sentenced the couple, saying to Adam "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground. For dust you are, and to dust you will return. (Genesis 3:19) God then expelled the couple from the garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:23)
This sin infected Adam's offspring, like a deadly disease. So, all Adam's descendants came under the sentence of death. A Bible verse says "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) Since we were born in sin, we have a hope that God will forgive us. The Bible speaks about this hope at Romans 6:23; "The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life, by Christ Jesus our lord."
That verse speaks of death as deserved, "wages", but the everlasting life as a "gift" given to obedient ones by God.

thanks for the verses. so does christianity teach that the prophets of God were sinners, or were capable of sin or is that just for Adam?

 

[rusra02]

thanks for the verses. so does christianity teach that the prophets of God were sinners, or were capable of sin or is that just for Adam?

The scripture at Romans 5:12 answers that question. All men,save one, are sinful and therefore die. That includes faithful prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and others. Romans 5:14 adds "death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam."
These faithful men were righteous in God's eyes. They did not sin willfully, as Adam did. Still, they were imperfect and could not refrain from sinning on occasion. A Bible writer explains the sad situation we are all in: "In my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for ability to wish is present with me, but ability to work out what is fine is not present. For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me." (Romans 7:18-20)
Happily, God has made provision to forgive our sins, and eventually, free us completely from sin's effects. (Romans 7:24,25)

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[Katzpur]

thanks for the verses. so does christianity teach that the prophets of God were sinners, or were capable of sin or is that just for Adam?

No one is born a sinner. All, including the prophets, were not only capable of sin but predisposed to be sinful.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I notice you totally ignore the point of my post.

So the non-inheritance statement stands.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Original Sin, was not part of the original teachings of Jesus or Moses, but it is a concept that is made by the Churches based on their understanding and interpretations.
Clearly the Old testomony doens't agree with it, neither the new testomony agrees with it.

 

[Mister Emu]

So the non-inheritance statement stands.

The non-inheritance statement makes no sense. Using Ezekial 18:14-20 to say original sin is false makes no sense.

Unless you have a faulty understanding of what the doctrine of Original Sin actually says. Which is why I asked you to explain your understanding.

 

[BruceDLimber]

REGARDLESS of what original sin meant, scripture is clear that sin is NOT inherited from ancestors (or anybody else), so what exactly it was is irrelevant!

Bruce

 

[rusra02]

REGARDLESS of what original sin meant, scripture is clear that sin is NOT inherited from ancestors (or anybody else), so what exactly it was is irrelevant!

Bruce

It is simply not true that scripture says sin is not inherited from ancestors. Scripture says exactly that.
Romans 5:12 clearly shows sin spread from the one man Adam. Romans 3:23 adds "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"Death is through a man...in Adam all are dying. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) We die because Adam passed on to us what he himself had, sin and imperfection. That is why Jesus had to 'give his soul a ransom in exchange for many'. (Matthew 20:28) As the perfect equivalent of Adam, born without sin, Jesus sacrifice of that perfect human life bought back or paid the price for what Adam had squandered. Thus, Jesus sacrifice opened the way for those exercising faith to gain everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 15:21,22 says "For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all all dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."

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[Pegg]

hi everyone.
i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

sounds like satan is once again twisting the story to make God out to be a failure.

It is true that Adam blamed Eve. He said to God "the woman you gave me, she gave me the fruit, so i ate"
Adam was effectively blaming Eve for his mistake. This was the view of the early christians too. The apostle Paul explained why a woman was not permitted to be a teacher in the early congregations. He recounted the incident in Eden and said at 1Tim2:13-14 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived..."
This shows that Adam knew exactly what he was doing when he ate the fruit. He knew he was defying God, he knew that it was rebellious to do so...but the woman was actually tricked into eating the fruit and did not really understand the severity of what she had done.

So can it be concluded that if a person deliberately goes out of their way to act rebellious that it is Gods fault? Of course not.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

the original sin according to the bible was defiance of Gods authority.
Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account"
Adam took the word of someone else and ignored the word of God. In effect he turned his back on Gods authority. They acted independent, when they should have remained in submission to Gods will and obeyed Gods law.

So independence was the original sin. They had established their own set of rules when they should have remained in submission to Gods rules.

 

[Mister Emu]

REGARDLESS of what original sin meant, scripture is clear that sin is NOT inherited from ancestors (or anybody else), so what exactly it was is irrelevant!

So you acknowledge you don't actually know what someone means when they say they believe in the doctrine of original sin, and you are fine wallowing in said ignorance.

Furthermore, from a position of ignorance you declare a doctrine you don't understand false based on grounds that have nothing to do with the doctrine.

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

Well i heard this story first time. If Adam act what Eve is saying then it mean Adam never use his mind to act upon some thing. Its insane to believe on such things.

 

[ellenjanuary]

It's all the same sin: separation from god.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Scripture says exactly that.

Just as scriptures says exactly that sin is NOT inherited!

So you have a contradiction that, apparently, needs resolving.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Katzpur]

It is simply not true that scripture says sin is not inherited from ancestors. Scripture says exactly that.

No it doesn't.

Romans 5:12 clearly shows sin spread from the one man Adam. Romans 3:23 adds "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Adam is not even mentioned here. How can you pretend he is?

"Death is through a man...in Adam all are dying. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23) We die because Adam passed on to us what he himself had, sin and imperfection. That is why Jesus had to 'give his soul a ransom in exchange for many'. (Matthew 20:28) As the perfect equivalent of Adam, born without sin, Jesus sacrifice of that perfect human life bought back or paid the price for what Adam had squandered. Thus, Jesus sacrifice opened the way for those exercising faith to gain everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 15:21,22 says "For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all all dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."

Adam passed on his human nature to his descendants, and it is human nature to be predisposed to be sinful. But a person is not a sinner until he sins, and he cannot sin until he is capable of willfully transgressing God's laws.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Adam passed on his human nature to his descendants, and it is human nature to be predisposed to be sinful. But a person is not a sinner until he sins, and he cannot sin until he is capable of willfully transgressing God's laws.

That's a good and logical explaination.

Now, let's suppose, that a person who comitted some sins in his life, at some point prays sincerely to God for forgiveness. The scriptutres says sins can be forgiven. Very shortly after that he dies without doing anymore sins. Can we say this person died as a Sinner?

 

[Katzpur]

That's a good and logical explaination.

Thank you. I thought so.

Now, let's suppose, that a person who comitted some sins in his life, at some point prays sincerely to God for forgiveness. The scriptutres says sins can be forgiven. Very shortly after that he dies without doing anymore sins. Can we say this person died as a Sinner?

Well, since a person who has sinned is "a sinner," I'd say he is still "a sinner." He is, however, "a repentant sinner" as opposed to "an unrepentant sinner." As a reprentant sinner, he can, of course, be forgiven.

As a Christian, I'd have to say that I see sin as a kind of a debt we incur against God, and that justice requires that the debt be repaid, and not merely forgotten as the result of an apology. So even once we repent (which is absolutely necessary in order to be forgiven), there are still consequences which must be paid for the sin. We can either be punished for them ourselves or accept Jesus Christ's offer to bear our guilt for us. Maybe this commentary seems kind of off-topic, but I felt like I had to add it. Had I simply said that a repentant sinner is no longer a sinner, that would imply that the debt he incurred is forgotten, and I don't believe that is what happens. Once a person has sinned, a debt has been incurred and must be paid in full -- by either the sinner himself or by Jesus Christ on his behalf. Once that has happened, the debt is forgotten and the sin is forgiven. If the person in your question were to accept Jesus Christ's gift of salvation, the debt for his previous sins would have been paid. If he were to refuse it, he would still have to suffer the consequences for having sinned before he could be forgiven.

One final thought: I can imagine people saying, "Well, if God has to punish someone first, He really isn't forgiving after all." I suppose you could argue that. I would disagree, however, because God isn't required to forgive us at all. We know that He is a merciful God since He will ultimately forgive us, but He is also a just God because He does not allow sin to go unpunished. I don't think He'd be much of a God if He were to simply turn a blind eye to our sins after having given us commandments and explained the consequences for disobeying them.

 

[Pegg]

Just as scriptures says exactly that sin is NOT inherited!

So you have a contradiction that, apparently, needs resolving.

Peace,

Bruce

Psalm 51:5 “Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Eccl 7:20 For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin

James 3:2 For we all stumble many times. If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man, able to bridle also [his] whole body

1John 1:8 If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us

James 1:15 ...; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death