Original Sin - a question about it

[free spirit]

[waitasec;2454349]i agree humans are not perfect....
but to punish someone for their imperfections, meaning born sick and ordered to be healed and being punished for failing to get healed is a bit ridiculous to me...
i am curious about why god requires perfection, why god requires sacrifices to absolve us from our imperfections...
since god in all his knowingness knew adam would be imperfect

Adam chose to know good and evil the same as God, God only choses to do good; so Adam now has a choice to make, which will take him away from God or eventually be one with God. It is our choice either do good and be with God or wilfully do evil and be with the Devil.

but even then, there are some mistakes that i think most of us don't do..
most of us are not murderers, most of us don't steal,
most of us don't rape, molest or even own a slave...so what would be the sin that would 'cause our imperfected selves to be punished for an eternity?
don't tell me it's lack of faith...if you are eluding to that notion then i am to think any deity who would punish it's creation for not having faith in it's creator is down right insecure...a human imperfection no less.

Because of our coveting nature and ignorance we all make mistakes, therefore God in his mercy has provide a way for us to be forgiven, God only reject those who willingly sin and deny Him.

well then you should sell all your worldly possessions and move to a 3rd world country because capitalism is based on coveting, don't you think?
so every time you buy a handy dandy power tool you covet, you are sinning...isn't that right...

At present, some of us have the luxury of living in an affluent society and the things that most of us pursue are what make us happy and comfortable living in this world. It is only natural and we need not to be ashamed of it for we are living in this world and we have a duty to provide for our family and ourselves. But while we are discretely and honestly doing that, we also need to understand that God’s precious things are things that are not coveted by men.
As we read in 1Corinthians 1:28: “And the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen the things that are not covetedthat He might nullify the things that are.” The above scripture would certainly appear to any reasonable thinking man to be a foolish undertaking, for how could anyone survive in this world without coveting.
We will certainly find the wisdom and purpose of the above “foolish” statement, if we are able to allocate the scriptures of Luke 6:20-38 to whom they are addressed to, by asking ourselves which scriptures are for the Lord’s co-workers? Which ones are for false workers? And which ones are for believers?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If God is going to resurrect people, what could the purpose in death be? There doesnt seem much point if God resurrects the dead if you see what I mean.

According to Bible, Every human has a physical body as well as a soul.
Just as our body needs food, so does our soul. But the food for our soul is the spiritual teachings of God. That's why Jesus said, He is the Bread.
He also said:
"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:57


Thus, when people die, their soul continues to live. But if the soul did not receive of the spiritual food, it will be like a dead soul, powerless.
Thus, when people do not follow the spiritual teachings and commandments, this is Sin, which causes their Soul not to recieve the "Bread", thus their soul becomes weak like a dead. I believe this is the law of "Sin and Death".

Thus God always sends His Devine messengers to spread the Word of God and renew the Spiritual teachings, by which people may receive from the Bread that gives everlasting life to the soul.

As Jesus said: "he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John 6:59

Therefore in every resurrection Day, people according to how much the take benefit from the spiritual teachings, their soul will progress after their physical body dies. But not everyone equally, as the Bible says:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." 1 Corinthians 15:41-2

Lets say you are correct and the resurrection does apply to a messenger every 1,000 years, obviously that person would be a righteous person as all the prophets of old were.... so i have to ask what you make of this verse about the resurrection:
Acts 24:15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

Who (and why) do you think the 'unrighteous' ones are spoken of here?

At the time of appearance of Devine Messengers in every age, there are some people who believe, and there are those who oppose Him. For example at the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were unrighteous.

 

[Jacksnyte]

It's all the same sin: separation from god.

Exactly how can one be seperated from an allegedly omnipresent entity?

 

[Pegg]

According to Bible, Every human has a physical body as well as a soul.

Let me ask you this....If God spoke to you in a language other then your own, would you want to know the meaning of his words in his own language at the time it was spoken?

At the time of appearance of Devine Messengers in every age, there are some people who believe, and there are those who oppose Him. For example at the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were unrighteous.

but those pharasees were 'alive'...they werent resurrected.
All instances of 'resurrection' in the bible are about people coming back from the dead...from the grave/sheol.

Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them....

 

[Pegg]

Exactly how can one be seperated from an allegedly omnipresent entity?

you wont find anywhere in the hebrew or greek scriptures that state God is omnipresent... none of those terms are even found in the bible

they come from other eastern philosophies but not the bible.

 

[Jacksnyte]

you wont find anywhere in the hebrew or greek scriptures that state God is omnipresent... none of those terms are even found in the bible

they come from other eastern philosophies but not the bible.

If an entity is omnipotent, they are generally regarded as omnipresent. Omnipotence is not found in the Bible because it is a more recent term for a concept that IS found in the Bible: All-powerful.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let me ask you this....If God spoke to you in a language other then your own, would you want to know the meaning of his words in his own language at the time it was spoken?

I prefer to know the meaning of the words, from the Source, who would be God. Thus, this would be only possible through the Devine Messengers.
According to Bible, the Book is sealed. Meaning that no one would be able to know the mysteries of the Bible, even the very early Christians. It was left to be unsealed only by God through the later Devine Messengers.

but those pharasees were 'alive'...they werent resurrected.

All instances of 'resurrection' in the bible are about people coming back from the dead...from the grave/sheol.

Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them....

Yes, they were alive physically, but they were resurrected as Jesus was the Resurrection, but for the Pharisees who had done evil things, metaphorically it was the resurrection of damnation. Similar to the later resurrection:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:30

 

[Meow Mix]

Taken literally, the concept of "original sin," specifically in the context of the Garden of Eden story, seems to me to represent an example of divine entrapment and a catch-22.

It raises a lot of questions such as, "Why did God need to plant a forbidden tree there in the first place?" After all, an omnipotent/omniscient being requires no means to an end; and so wouldn't require that a Forbidden Tree be planted at all. So why put it there?

Secondly, the story pretty much asserts that Adam and Eve had no knowledge to differentiate "good and evil." The serpent says so himself according to the KJV that only when they eat from the fruit would Eve know good and evil. Taken literally, this would mean that Eve would be ignorant of how to distinguish "evil" from "good" prior to eating the fruit -- perhaps even ignorant as to what "evil" is at all.

If so, how was Eve supposed to defend herself against a new concept (to her) -- deception? Even if God said not to eat the fruit, if someone who doesn't understand deception is told that it's okay to eat the fruit then in their mind it's in fact okay to eat the fruit. This is sort of like if a child asks Mom if they can go to a slumber party and she says no, but then later on Dad says it's okay -- to the child, it's okay. (Another good example of this is the fact that we must deliberately tell our kids not to talk to strangers. Why? Because strangers can lie to them in an effort to abduct them for instance; and kids aren't fully cognizant of what lies are until they're older in order to defend themselves.)

So here we have poor Adam and Eve who have no defense against the serpent's deception being lied to into thinking it's okay to eat the fruit. In order to have any defense against the lie, they have to have eaten the fruit. But if they eat the fruit in order to have a defense against deception, it's too late. That's a genuine catch-22 -- what sort of God puts its creations into such situations?

Worse yet, if God is omniscient and omnipotent then God would have known ahead of time that the serpent would lie, and God would have known ahead of time that Eve would believe the serpent (having no defense against lies, and even lacking the ability to recognize a lie), and God still went ahead and planted a Forbidden Tree in the garden.

To me, that reeks of a deliberate set-up; a divine entrapment -- when taken literally, of course. Then again, what good is allegory when even taken loosely the point it attempts to convey doesn't exactly come across?

 

[Pegg]

If an entity is omnipotent, they are generally regarded as omnipresent. Omnipotence is not found in the Bible because it is a more recent term for a concept that IS found in the Bible: All-powerful.

all powerful, yes... all knowing, yes - if he chooses to be

all present, no. The bible is clear that he resides outside of our sphere of existence. He can look into everything if he chooses to, but he is not 'ever present' in every location at every time and minute of every day.

 

[waitasec]

Adam chose to know good and evil the same as God, God only choses to do good; so Adam now has a choice to make, which will take him away from God or eventually be one with God. It is our choice either do good and be with God or wilfully do evil and be with the Devil.

ok...but god in his all knowingness knew adam would sin, right?
so if he knew that to be the case before it happened why punish someone for their imperfections...it doesn't make sense. it's as if i know to look both ways before i cross the street and i punish you for not knowing that by letting you get run over by a car because you didn't look both ways.....

Because of our coveting nature and ignorance we all make mistakes, therefore God in his mercy has provide a way for us to be forgiven, God only reject those who willingly sin and deny Him.

but why would he care if he is denied, unless of course he is insecure...
do i care if an ant didn't acknowledge me? do i care what a bird thinks of me...? even as a parent, when i am second guessed..which happens everyday...do i deny my child? even if my child disobeyed me out right, i would still be there for my child...god makes a bad parent it seems...

At present, some of us have the luxury of living in an affluent society and the things that most of us pursue are what make us happy and comfortable living in this world.

thou shall not covet thy neighbors...

 

[Pegg]

I prefer to know the meaning of the words, from the Source, who would be God. Thus, this would be only possible through the Devine Messengers.

are you saying that you dont believe that what the divine messenges revealed or wrote in the bible is understandable?

According to Bible, the Book is sealed. Meaning that no one would be able to know the mysteries of the Bible, even the very early Christians. It was left to be unsealed only by God through the later Devine Messengers.

do you have the scriptural references ?

Yes, they were alive physically, but they were resurrected as Jesus was the Resurrection, but for the Pharisees who had done evil things, metaphorically it was the resurrection of damnation. Similar to the later resurrection:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:30

im not sure you have the right understanding of 'resurrection'

The Greek word a‧na′sta‧sis literally means “raising up or standing up" from the grave. It has nothing to do with living people, not even if they are spiritually dead. It has to do with dead people.

 

[free spirit]

waitasec;2454996]ok...but god in his all knowingness knew adam would sin, right?
so if he knew that to be the case before it happened why punish someone for their imperfections...it doesn't make sense. it's as if i know to look both ways before i cross the street and i punish you for not knowing that by letting you get run over by a car because you didn't look both ways.....

Yes He knew that Adam would sin nevertheless He created him, why? you must know that God can do anything right? Wrong, because He cannot reproduce himself, He cannot create other Gods for they would be created being and no gods. God is father and He is selecting for himself a family equal to Him to rule and inhabit the universe.

but why would he care if he is denied, unless of course he is insecure...
do i care if an ant didn't acknowledge me? do i care what a bird thinks of me...? even as a parent, when i am second guessed..which happens everyday...do i deny my child? even if my child disobeyed me out right, i would still be there for my child...god makes a bad parent it seems...

God is father; and I am a father with five adult children all of them have free will, I love them all but if one breaks the law I cannot help him, I will try but it will be mostly out of my hand. God want us to do his will because He want us to inherit Him so He can rule the universe through us or we can rule the universe through Him.

thou shall not covet thy neighbors...

Goods, wife, position in society or mobile phone.

 

[waitasec]

Yes He knew that Adam would sin nevertheless He created him, why? you must know that God can do anything right? Wrong, because He cannot reproduce himself, He cannot create other Gods for they would be created being and no gods. God is father and He is selecting for himself a family equal to Him to rule and inhabit the universe.

here i see how the idea of god gives certain people an undue sense of importance...'i must be important, god wants me to rule the world and the universe'

God is father; and I am a father with five adult children all of them have free will, I love them all but if one breaks the law I cannot help him, I will try but it will be mostly out of my hand. God want us to do his will because He want us to inherit Him so He can rule the universe through us or we can rule the universe through Him.

but there is no 'free will', whatever that is, if god knows before hand that they will break the law...
you are claiming that god is a father and the law...
it is nonsense, let me put it to you like this:
god is holding a cripple accountable for not being able to walk and demanding him to do so...if he fails, he breaks the law
as a father however, an earthly one at that, would not require such demands to be fulfilled...

Goods, wife, position in society or mobile phone.

you forgot to mention...husband...

goods like...cars, home, flat screen TVs... :thud:

 

[Katzpur]

im not sure you have the right understanding of 'resurrection'

The Greek word a‧na′sta‧sis literally means “raising up or standing up" from the grave. It has nothing to do with living people, not even if they are spiritually dead. It has to do with dead people.

I'm surprised at how many people are clueless as to what the word "resurrection" really means, Pegg.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

are you saying that you dont believe that what the divine messenges revealed or wrote in the bible is understandable?

I am saying that in the writings of prophets there has been symbolic terms and abstruse allusions. For example, Jesus Himself talked with these parabolic terms so those who don’t have a pure heart wouldn’t be able to understand. Thus it has been a test that would separate people of understanding from others. Here are some verses to reflect on:


“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” 1 Cor. 2:7-10

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” 1 Cor 14:2-3


“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.” Matthew 13:10-14, Mark 4:11-14, Luke 8:9-11

do you have the scriptural references ?

here are some verses regarding the Book is sealed to reflect on:


“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.” Isaiah 29:11-12


“And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” Daniel 12:9-11

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals…..And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. ” Revelation 5:1-4

im not sure you have the right understanding of 'resurrection'

The Greek word a‧na′sta‧sis literally means “raising up or standing up" from the grave. It has nothing to do with living people, not even if they are spiritually dead. It has to do with dead people.

Dead raising from the graves of error. Here are some quotations from Baha’I Scriptures:

“…had they risen from the grave of error by the power of his love, the judgment of death would certainly not have been pronounced against them.
In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” If one will ponder but for a while … , one will surely discover all mysteries hidden in the terms “grave,” “tomb,” “ṣiraṭ,” “paradise” and “hell.” But oh! how strange and pitiful! Behold, all the people are imprisoned within the tomb of self, and lie buried beneath the nethermost depths of worldly desire! Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality.“

“God indeed shall make whom He will to hearken, but We shall not make those who are in their graves to hearken.”

Baha’u’llah – Book of Certitude

 

[Thief]

Taken literally, the concept of "original sin," specifically in the context of the Garden of Eden story, seems to me to represent an example of divine entrapment and a catch-22.

It raises a lot of questions such as, "Why did God need to plant a forbidden tree there in the first place?" After all, an omnipotent/omniscient being requires no means to an end; and so wouldn't require that a Forbidden Tree be planted at all. So why put it there?

Secondly, the story pretty much asserts that Adam and Eve had no knowledge to differentiate "good and evil." The serpent says so himself according to the KJV that only when they eat from the fruit would Eve know good and evil. Taken literally, this would mean that Eve would be ignorant of how to distinguish "evil" from "good" prior to eating the fruit -- perhaps even ignorant as to what "evil" is at all.

If so, how was Eve supposed to defend herself against a new concept (to her) -- deception? Even if God said not to eat the fruit, if someone who doesn't understand deception is told that it's okay to eat the fruit then in their mind it's in fact okay to eat the fruit. This is sort of like if a child asks Mom if they can go to a slumber party and she says no, but then later on Dad says it's okay -- to the child, it's okay. (Another good example of this is the fact that we must deliberately tell our kids not to talk to strangers. Why? Because strangers can lie to them in an effort to abduct them for instance; and kids aren't fully cognizant of what lies are until they're older in order to defend themselves.)

So here we have poor Adam and Eve who have no defense against the serpent's deception being lied to into thinking it's okay to eat the fruit. In order to have any defense against the lie, they have to have eaten the fruit. But if they eat the fruit in order to have a defense against deception, it's too late. That's a genuine catch-22 -- what sort of God puts its creations into such situations?

Worse yet, if God is omniscient and omnipotent then God would have known ahead of time that the serpent would lie, and God would have known ahead of time that Eve would believe the serpent (having no defense against lies, and even lacking the ability to recognize a lie), and God still went ahead and planted a Forbidden Tree in the garden.

To me, that reeks of a deliberate set-up; a divine entrapment -- when taken literally, of course. Then again, what good is allegory when even taken loosely the point it attempts to convey doesn't exactly come across?

I see the potential that we might agree....did you catch post#44?

 

[Pegg]

I'm surprised at how many people are clueless as to what the word "resurrection" really means, Pegg.

its those pesky zombies that did it... the dead will rise

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm surprised at how many people are clueless as to what the word "resurrection" really means, Pegg.

Just wondering how you would interpret these verses:

"O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." Psalms 30:3 ​

"....thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption" Psalms 38:17

"they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee..." Psalms 38:19 ​

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" Psalms 2:1 ​

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" Ephesians 2:4-6​

 

[Pegg]

“And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” Daniel 12:9-11

I just have two questions on this verse. I take it you are using this verse as evidence that the knowledge of God became revealed during the 'time of the end', so according to Bahai faith,

1. when did the 'time of the end' begin?

2. how is it determined that the 'time of the end' had begun?

 

[free spirit]

waitasec;2455249]here i see how the idea of god gives certain people an undue sense of importance...'i must be important, god wants me to rule the world and the universe'

No, He is my father therefore He wants me to inherit Him, all I have to do is chose to do only good, like He does.

but there is no 'free will', whatever that is, if god knows before hand that they will break the law...
you are claiming that god is a father and the law...
it is nonsense, let me put it to you like this:
god is holding a cripple accountable for not being able to walk and demanding him to do so...if he fails, he breaks the law
as a father however, an earthly one at that, would not require such demands to be fulfilled...

God is just, we have free will because we can choose if you know and if you don't know you can follow your instinct for we read in Romans 2:14-15, "For when gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them."