Original Sin - a question about it

[Katzpur]

So, Pegg, do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person is born in a state of guilt?

 

[Pegg]

So, Pegg, do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person is born in a state of guilt?

of course babies and young children are not fully *edit 'aware' in their early years...as in they dont really have a sense of right or wrong until they have been taught...so I would never accuse a baby of deliberate sin

but we are certainly born with inherent sinfulness which basically means we are all prone to error and as we begin to develop self awareness and our consciousness, that sin becomes apparent in all of us.

 

[Mister Emu]

Adam passed on his human nature to his descendants, and it is human nature to be predisposed to be sinful.

Indeed, that is original sin.

 

[Thief]

Didn't see it....how about considering what the 'sin' actually is?

I say, 'sin' means 'without'....literally.

To live 'without' is 'sin'.....live without what?

To live without God is sin.

Adam was the first man to walk in the presence of God.
It is the only attribute that makes him unique.

He then had to live without God.
He did live in sin.

Most religion would have you believe Adam made a bad choice...
and living without God was the consequence.

I say, God was going to leave him...alone with his wife....
and whatever might happen would happen.

In this perspective I would concede that God set them up.

But without the ability to choose....
without the ability to take their own lives into their own hands...
they would never be more than animals....pets at best.

The acquisition of knowledge was not an option.
It was required.

Without it....Man would never stand on his own.

 

[Katzpur]

of course babies and young children are not fully *edit 'aware' in their early years...as in they dont really have a sense of right or wrong until they have been taught...so I would never accuse a baby of deliberate sin

but we are certainly born with inherent sinfulness which basically means we are all prone to error and as we begin to develop self awareness and our consciousness, that sin becomes apparent in all of us.

I can go along with that. As The Book of Mormon states, "The natural man is an enemy to God..."

 

[Katzpur]

Indeed, that is original sin.

So it appears we agree, Mister Emu. But aren't you Catholic? (Somewhere I got that in my head.) Don't you believe that a baby must be baptized to somehow remove the effects of original sin? If not, could you explain your belief, because it's possible I'm getting you mixed up with someone else.

 

[Pegg]

Didn't see it....how about considering what the 'sin' actually is?

I say, 'sin' means 'without'....literally.

To live 'without' is 'sin'.....live without what?

To live without God is sin.

im not sure what definition (if that is an actual definition) you are using, but the Hebrew word translated “sin” is chat‧ta’th′ and the Greek word is usually ha‧mar‧ti′a. In both languages they are verbs that mean “miss,”

its in the sense of missing a mark or not reaching a goal...this is seen by the way the word is used by Greek writers. They used ha‧mar‧ta′no with regard to a spearman missing his target. And even in the hebrew scriptures at Judges 20:16 cha‧ta’′ describes the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss'

 

[Pegg]

I can go along with that. As The Book of Mormon states, "The natural man is an enemy to God..."

Its always good to find areas of common ground between us.

 

[BruceDLimber]

My point holds:

Given what Ezekiel 18 says, you have a contradiction that needs resolving.


Bruce

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Psalm 51:5 “Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Eccl 7:20 For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin

James 3:2 For we all stumble many times. If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man, able to bridle also [his] whole body

1John 1:8 If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us

James 1:15 ...; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death

So, the scriptures say that Sin causes death, and the Sin of Adam is the cause of death. Now, would this be interpreted a physical death, or spiritual death?
We have seen many new born babies who have died. Was it because of their Sin? if So, what would be the Sin of a new born baby?

As it is recorded in the Bible, Jesus also said in reference to a man who was not a believer something like this: "Let the Dead bury their Dead".

How can dead bury a dead?

 

[Orias]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

We all proclaim Original Sin

It is existence.

 

[Where Is God]

I have a question:Many years from now, if we somehow create a synthetic human (we have already started working on synthetic life), would he/she go to hell if he/she did not sin, but never accepted Jesus as a savior for something he/she didn't need to be saved from?

 

[Sirktas]

I suppose that would depend on if we can create a 'soul' for this sentient synthetic, and I suppose it would depend on Christianity's influence at the time it was created. Of course, the question doesn't really apply to me.

 

[Pegg]

So, the scriptures say that Sin causes death, and the Sin of Adam is the cause of death. Now, would this be interpreted a physical death, or spiritual death?
We have seen many new born babies who have died. Was it because of their Sin? if So, what would be the Sin of a new born baby?

in Adams case, it was both a physical and spriritual death. he was cut off from God..that is spiritual death. But he was also cut off from everlasting life "and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” 23 With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden
...that is the physcial death.

The consequence of being cut off from everlasting life means that all Adams offspring inherit this consequence. This is why babies can die. Adams genetics are passed onto us, and those genetics include death.

As it is recorded in the Bible, Jesus also said in reference to a man who was not a believer something like this: "Let the Dead bury their Dead".

How can dead bury a dead?

the man he spoke about was more concerned with seeing to the burial of his father rather then following the Son of God. Jesus comment shows that he viewed the man as being dead spiritually. To be dead spiritually means to be unconcerned with spiritual matters. some people only have an interest in the things they can see...but the things of the spirit require the heart and mind to see them. some peoples minds and hearts are shut off from seeing spiritual things therefore they are spiritually dead.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

in Adams case, it was both a physical and spriritual death. he was cut off from God..that is spiritual death. But he was also cut off from everlasting life "and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” 23 With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden
...that is the physcial death.

The consequence of being cut off from everlasting life means that all Adams offspring inherit this consequence. This is why babies can die. Adams genetics are passed onto us, and those genetics include death.

Thanks Pegg. I agree that it is the characteristic of flesh, which dies eventually. Although, it seems that when the scripture talks about everlasting life, it is refering to the life of spirit, not the physical body (flesh). For example:

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:9

So, with reference to the verse you quoted above, "live to time indefinite", I believe it must have been refering to the everlasting spiritual life of Adam. So, sin, which is disobedience and unbelief, would result in spiritual death just like Adam.

The "tree of life" would have similar metaphoric meaning as when Jesus said He is the "bread" or "water of life", which is basically the spiritual teachings of God or the Word of God.

Does the scripture explictly ever say that Adam's flesh or natural body could have had everlasting life?

the man he spoke about was more concerned with seeing to the burial of his father rather then following the Son of God. Jesus comment shows that he viewed the man as being dead spiritually. To be dead spiritually means to be unconcerned with spiritual matters. some people only have an interest in the things they can see...but the things of the spirit require the heart and mind to see them. some peoples minds and hearts are shut off from seeing spiritual things therefore they are spiritually dead.

Agree, I believe the same.

 

[Pegg]

Does the scripture explictly ever say that Adam's flesh or natural body could have had everlasting life?

The scriptural account in genesis certainly infers that his body could have remained forever.

First though, Adam was said to have been created from dust. There is nothing about him having an existing life as a spirit. Before he was created, he did not exist so it cannot be stated that Adam lived as a spirit prior to becoming a human.
Genesis 2:7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul


Also, the command given to Adam stated:
Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.
From this the only logical deduction is that if Adam had of obeyed Gods command, he would never have died. God had not given a time limit to Adams life...he gave him the opportunity to live for as long as he was obedient to that command.

IOW, If Adam had NEVER eaten from the tree, then he should have lived forever.


There are other scriptures that speak of everlasting life too...and a disticntion is made between heavenly and earthly life which tells us that there are two destinations, not one:

heavenly life: Matt5:3 “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them
& Earthly life: 5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

Psalm 37:11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it

Matt 19:16 “Teacher, what good must I do in order to get everlasting life?”

1John2:25 Furthermore, this is the promised thing that he himself promised us, the life everlasting.

Matt 19:29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life

The resurrections that have been recorded in the bible accounts are there to show us that Gods intention is to bring people back to 'life' in their physical form.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The scriptural account in genesis certainly infers that his body could have remained forever.

Thanks, for the interesting verses!
There is also another verse:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans8:3

In this verse, what would we say "the law of sin and death" is?
If we say that, this law is, the law of physical death due to sin, then how is it that this person died?, even though he was made free from the law of sin and death.

Psalm 37:11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it

I believe these verses are in reference to an age that everybody on earth will be a believer. Though indivisuals will be still subject to death, but since the whole earth will be full of believers, then it is said that "The righteous themselves will possess the earth"

The resurrections that have been recorded in the bible accounts are there to show us that Gods intention is to bring people back to 'life' in their physical form.

In our view, the resurrection is generally any Day, that a devine Messenger comes in every about a 1000 years, to renew the spiritual teachings of God, which is life.

I think this can be seen from Bible too.

"...for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6

The gospel was preached to the dead. The dead were those who were not believers.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:26

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 5:30 John

 

[Pegg]

Thanks, for the interesting verses!
There is also another verse:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans8:3

In this verse, what would we say "the law of sin and death" is?
If we say that, this law is, the law of physical death due to sin, then how is it that this person died?, even though he was made free from the law of sin and death.

very good observation on this verse. You are correct in that the law of sin and death is the physical death brought about by sin. All of us are affected by that law because we all sin.

Paul was speaking about being 'free' from the law of sin and death. He wrote these words AFTER Jesus offered his sacrifice to God. It must be remembered that the significance of Jesus sacrifice was for mankind to make atonement for their sins....in the same way the animal sacrifices were given at the temple for the jews to make atonement for their sins.

Paul understood how the sacrifice of Christ covers the sins of mankind, so long as they strive to live by the law of the 'spirit'. If we are doing that, then we are all free from the law of sin and death, which condemns one to die, because God will forgive all of us our sins thus we are no longer 'condemned'. In the future, those striving to live by the spirit will have eternity to get it right....eventually they will do all things as God requires and thus be free of sin and in turn, free of death because God will turn back the aging process...effectively putting an end to the 'condemnation' we all currently experience.

I believe these verses are in reference to an age that everybody on earth will be a believer. Though indivisuals will be still subject to death, but since the whole earth will be full of believers, then it is said that "The righteous themselves will possess the earth"

ok, i agree with you partly. To us, its the time when God is ruling mankind. The only difference we believe is that people will actually live forever in their physical bodies. The reason to conclude that this must be the case is in the fact that God promises a 'resurrection' to life.

this is a bringing back to physical life, all who have previously died as Jesus said "all in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out"
If God is going to resurrect people, what could the purpose in death be? There doesnt seem much point if God resurrects the dead if you see what I mean.

In our view, the resurrection is generally any Day, that a devine Messenger comes in every about a 1000 years, to renew the spiritual teachings of God, which is life.
I think this can be seen from Bible too.

"...for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6

The gospel was preached to the dead. The dead were those who were not believers.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 5:26

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 5:30 John

Lets say you are correct and the resurrection does apply to a messenger every 1,000 years, obviously that person would be a righteous person as all the prophets of old were.... so i have to ask what you make of this verse about the resurrection:
Acts 24:15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

Who (and why) do you think the 'unrighteous' ones are spoken of here?

 

[free spirit]

hi everyone.

this is mostly about christians, i was told something about the Original Sin thing by a christian and i wanted to ask if others had the same view and maybe have a discussion on it if it turns out that his views are corect.

i was told that after Adam and Eve peace be upon them broke Gods command, God asked Adam why he ate from the tree and in reply he said to God, "eve influenced me" thus the blame went to God himself because what Adam meant was that it was God who created Eve and it was her who led to him eating from the tree, meaning that God was responsible for the whole thing. then God accepted his mistake and forgave Adam and then he sent his son to wipe the sins of the people in return for the mistake that he made.

is this anything like what the bible says? i think it isn't but just to be sure.

if it isn't then i will ask another question on the same subject. i can't quite understand this concept of Original Sin from a christian perspective and would like to discuss it further. thanks in advance.

Hi Eselam, It is a good question because many Christians, and many Christian denominations, struggle to define the origin of the original sin for most of us have never considered that when Adam sinned, sin become an integral part of our human character. it is something innate and undetectable. So in order to understand sin and humanity's fall from grace we must begin where it all started and that is from the first sinner, "Satan" and the sin he committed. We all know that Satan's sin was to COVET the likeness of the Most High God for is Isaiah 14:14 we read: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
Adam's sin was to follow Satan and allow himself to COVET the knowledge equal to God, for in Genesis 3:4-6 we read: "And the serpent said to the women, 'You surely shall not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."
Therefore, we should realise that COVETING is Satan's sinful character. Obviously Adam was enticed to follow him in disregard of God's commandment and by that action Adam made COVETING the evil integral part of the human character. It remained the integral undisputed ruler of our lives until the law given to Moses contained the commandment, "You shall not COVET"

 

[waitasec]

Hi Eselam, It is a good question because many Christians, and many Christian denominations, struggle to define the origin of the original sin for most of us have never considered that when Adam sinned, sin become an integral part of our human character. it is something innate and undetectable.

i agree humans are not perfect....
but to punish someone for their imperfections, meaning born sick and ordered to be healed and being punished for failing to get healed is a bit ridiculous to me...
i am curious about why god requires perfection, why god requires sacrifices to absolve us from our imperfections...
since god in all his knowingness knew adam would be imperfect

but even then, there are some mistakes that i think most of us don't do..
most of us are not murderers, most of us don't steal,
most of us don't rape, molest or even own a slave...so what would be the sin that would 'cause our imperfected selves to be punished for an eternity?
don't tell me it's lack of faith...if you are eluding to that notion then i am to think any deity who would punish it's creation for not having faith in it's creator is down right insecure...a human imperfection no less.

Therefore, we should realise that COVETING is Satan's sinful character. Obviously Adam was enticed to follow him in disregard of God's commandment and by that action Adam made COVETING the evil integral part of the human character. It remained the integral undisputed ruler of our lives until the law given to Moses contained the commandment, "You shall not COVET"

well then you should sell all your worldly possessions and move to a 3rd world country because capitalism is based on coveting, don't you think?
so every time you buy a handy dandy power tool you covet, you are sinning...isn't that right...