Original Sin Fact or Fiction?

[joeboonda]

Hi, all, I have enjoyed reading about everyone's thots on 'original sin'. Of course, I believe the Bible literaly unless it says otherwise, so I believe the Adam and Eve story is true and they were real people. Anyway, God is holy and good and just, and I don't think he will send all 'non-christians' to a burning Hell for I believe there is truth in all religion and God looks at our heart. But that's another topic.

Let me ask, okay, we will be judged for our sins, right? (unless they are covered in the blood of Jesus, imo). So, even if there is no original sin, which I believe we all inherited a sin nature, let me ask you this:

Have you ever told a lie? That makes you a liar.
Have you ever stolen anything no matter how small? Then you are a thief.
Have you ever taken God's name in vain? You are a blasphemer.
Have you looked at someone with lust? You are an adulterer in heart according to Jesus.
Have you hated or been angry at someone without cause? You are a murderer at heart according to John.


That there would make one a lying, theiving, blaspheming, adulterer at heart, murderer in heart and you would stand guilty before God on judgement day.

Okay, I could go through all ten commandments, and I can tell you I broke every one in some sense. This is what Christ tried to teach, the 'essence' of the law. We are all guilty, we are just human, for none of us are holy like God. That is why we need a Saviour, Jesus. In Isaiah, God said he was satisfied with the sacrifice Jesus would make for payment for our sins. The greatest truth I know is the substitutionary death of Christ for my and your sins, offered as a free gift. Peter preached at pentecost, and 3,000 people were saved that DAY. Why? because they believed Christ died for them and rose again. This is the truth, this is the pinnacle of everything. Well, God bless you and lead you (and me) into all truth.
Mike

 

[Scott1]

I think with that we have reached an accord. I believe the whole story of the fall is metaphor meant to be of contemplative value not to be taken literally. Though I doubt Scott1 will agree.

Well, as Victor keeps pointing out, you don't seem understand what original sin means to orthodox Christians. Original sin and PERSONAL SIN are two different things.

How can one sin by being what God intended one to be?

God intended all men to lie?... to disobey Him?.... to hold himself as a god above all else...??????

Maybe your god intended it to be so, but not my Father.

In Christ,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, as Victor keeps pointing out, you don't seem understand what original sin means to orthodox Christians. Original sin and PERSONAL SIN are two different things.

God intended all men to lie?... to disobey Him?.... to hold himself as a god above all else...??????

Maybe your god intended it to be so, but not my Father.

In Christ,
Scott

If I lie, or disobey I am suffering my OWN sin. And if I was created with free will, then I was created capable of "sin". Has nothing to dith a "fall from grace" on the part of my remotest ancestor.Regards,Scott

 

[Scott1]

If I lie, or disobey I am suffering my OWN sin.

Right... we call that personal sin... which is different from original sin which is more akin to a "sickness" than a lie or what not.

And if I was created with free will, then I was created capable of "sin".

True freedom is not the abiltiy to sin... true freedom (for a Christian, at least)can only be fully realized in a submission of the body and soul to the will of God.

You already stated that your god created you in a state of inperfection.... how then can any action you perform be a sin at all? ... after all, you are only perfoming within the limits that your god put you in... right?

 

[finalfrogo]

This can be easily determined by a belief in the Bible. If one believes in the Bible, one believes in original sin. It's pretty much the concept that the Bible revolves around.

 

[finalfrogo]

Hi, all, I have enjoyed reading about everyone's thots on 'original sin'. Of course, I believe the Bible literaly unless it says otherwise, so I believe the Adam and Eve story is true and they were real people. Anyway, God is holy and good and just, and I don't think he will send all 'non-christians' to a burning Hell for I believe there is truth in all religion and God looks at our heart. But that's another topic.

You're a biblical literalist and yet you don't think that non-christians will burn in Hell? Isn't that a slight oxymoron? Don't get me wrong, though, I support inclusive beliefs. Thus, I believe that Christians aren't the only ones going to heaven (probably because I'm not Christian). I've just never met a literalist who shares this idea.

 

[Popeyesays]

Right... we call that personal sin... which is different from original sin which is more akin to a "sickness" than a lie or what not.

True freedom is not the abiltiy to sin... true freedom (for a Christian, at least)can only be fully realized in a submission of the body and soul to the will of God.

You already stated that your god created you in a state of inperfection.... how then can any action you perform be a sin at all? ... after all, you are only perfoming within the limits that your god put you in... right?

No. Not right. God created us with the facility to CHOOSE to follow or CHOOSE not to follow. That is free-will. We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so.You look upon it as a burden. It is truly a great blessing and what makes man the pinnacle of Creation - man can CHOOSE. When he chooses wrong he sins and demeans and abases himself."22. O SON OF SPIRIT!Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

 

[finalfrogo]

I define "sin" as disconnectedness from God. We are all born connected with God, but the world into which we are born does not easily support such a connection, and it dissipates in early childhood. It can be connected to the human ancestors; they made the world in which we live in.

 

[Scott1]

No. Not right.

Hmmm... I could have sworn you started this thread as a discussion about original sin means to Christians.... I didn't know that you were qualified to tell a Christian that he/she is "not right" about what they believe. I'd love to learn more about your faith, but do me the favor of not telling me I'm wrong.... I hope you can explain what you believe in without just telling others they are wrong... we shall see.

God created us with the facility to CHOOSE to follow or CHOOSE not to follow.

You believe that humans are born with all the knowledge about God that they ever will need... and that humans are born with the ability to know good and avoid all evil from BIRTH ????
Please explain.

We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so.

Why do you need your god if all you need is good intentions to remain sinless and holy in this life - moral support or something like that?

You look upon it as a burden. It is truly a great blessing and what makes man the pinnacle of Creation - man can CHOOSE.

I don't think you know me or Christian theology well enough to judge if I believe "it" is a burden or anything else... you are, in fact, quite wrong in your assumption.... and if you take a minute to stop preaching and try to learn a bit about orthodox Christianity it wouldn't kill ya.

22. O SON OF SPIRIT!Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Thanks for the quote... but you still have not answered my question. How "noble" is a creation that demeans and abases himself without fail.... each and every one of these "noble" creations have sinned and will continue to do so until the end of time...... does your god have a low standard of what is considered "noble" or are people just stupid in your estimation?

Thanks for the help,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I'll just touch on this one for now:"Thanks for the quote... but you still have not answered my question. How "noble" is a creation that demeans and abases himself without fail.... each and every one of these "noble" creations have sinned and will continue to do so until the end of time...... does your god have a low standard of what is considered "noble" or are people just stupid in your estimation?"Men do not abase themselves without fail. For every act of abasement one CAN commit an act of ennoblement. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a philanderer. He was also a guiding light for rectifying the civil rights situation in this country at the very same time. Mahatma Ghandi was a lawyer, who rose to ennoble himself greatly. In the Bible we find the prophets ennobling themselves more often than not.I'll quote a slightly longer set of verses from the same source. There are lots of pre-requisites for making the right choices in life, these include:1. O SON OF SPIRIT!My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.2. O SON OF SPIRIT!The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.3. O SON OF MAN!Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.4. O SON OF MAN!I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.5. O SON OF BEING!Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant." (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)God is a neccesity, for without the aid and guidance of God we can not do anything but fail, but we should rely on Him for guidance, not condemnation.Regards,Scott

 

[Scott1]

Men do not abase themselves without fail. For every act of abasement one CAN commit an act of ennoblement.

So your god has a good/evil "balance sheet" or something like that?

Evil is not evil if you have enough good works to cancel it out.... is that it?

There are lots of pre-requisites for making the right choices in life, these include

Why do you need "pre-requisites"?

That would make your previous statement: "We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so." FALSE.

It should read:
"We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to follow certain "pre-requisites" only available to those people who have read Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words."

What happens to people who do not know your god Baha'u'llah or reject his/her teachings? Do they go to hell/are they damned in some way?

All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott

 

[De Otro Lado]

Why are you guys arguing over the same side of the coin?
Are we born with the RESULT of original sin? Yes, we have knowledge of good/evil right/wrong etc.
Are we born noble aka "sinless"? Yes, at the time of birth we have committed no personal sin.
Do we have the ability to choose between good/evil right/wrong? Yes, which in part exposes our weaknesses AND contributes to our nobility.
Peace

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Um, duh, lemme see here guys. Is this here conceit of original sin the idear that everyone is born danged sinful?

We ain't born innercent or sumthin' like that?

 

[joeboonda]

You're a biblical literalist and yet you don't think that non-christians will burn in Hell? Isn't that a slight oxymoron? Don't get me wrong, though, I support inclusive beliefs. Thus, I believe that Christians aren't the only ones going to heaven (probably because I'm not Christian). I've just never met a literalist who shares this idea.

Yeah, that's funny isn't it? I am quite insane to many folks. Best way I can explain is that God is Love, and because He is Love He is just. Like if someone raped tortured and kiilled your daughter you would demand justice done to that person, it is the same with God. God judges every man according to the light given Him. He will not send a man to Hell for not believing in Christ's atoning death if He has never heard of Christ. He gave us each 2 things. A conscience, His words written in our hearts, and the creation, which shows us we have a creator, thus says Romans. So, a man who is sorry for things he has done wrong and prays to 'the great spirit' or whatever He knows of, God hears his prayers and forgives Him. He already paid for our sins, eh? I think too, that God is loving and just and will reward or punish each person accordingly, as an individual. But those who have heard of and rejected Christ, He will do the same to, but those who have accepted Christ are guaranteed of Heaven, but all will not have the same rewards. And I may not be 100% accurate on all that, lol.
Anyway, on original sin, I would just say that we are born with a 'sin nature' as the N.T. puts it. And we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and cannot be in His presence in Heaven without being consumed. So, Christ died and paid the penalty of sin which is death, and imputed His righteousness to all who believe in Him. That's it. KISS, keep it simple sam. Love ya all and God bless.
Mike

 

[lunamoth]

A lot of people do not like the word sin.

At one time humanity walked in the garden with God, we were one (little 'o') with God and at peace in His creation. But, is this how we experience God now? We rebel, we disobey, we rely upon ourselves instead of on Him. A seperation occurred, and this is the Fall. We now try to rely upon ourselves to judge good from evil, and it's a losing game in a world we are no longer in harmony with. We were (and are) created good. But at the dawn of humanity we chose to rely upon our selves and the whole context changed.

Then God in His mercy had pity on us and sent His Son to reconcile the world and repair the damage done. God was with us and again the context changed.

lunamoth

 

[Popeyesays]

So your god has a good/evil "balance sheet" or something like that?

Evil is not evil if you have enough good works to cancel it out.... is that it?

Why do you need "pre-requisites"?

That would make your previous statement: "We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to do so." FALSE.

It should read:
"We were created noble because we can be sinless if we choose to follow certain "pre-requisites" only available to those people who have read Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words."

What happens to people who do not know your god Baha'u'llah or reject his/her teachings? Do they go to hell/are they damned in some way?

All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott

Dear Scott,

If one has never heard of the name of Baha`u'llah and lives a life dedicated to the service of mankind, then that individual is in a "state of grace" by his own works. That is acceptable for God, IMO. If a person has a contrite heart for his own misdeeds and seeks to "sin no more", and fearlessly goes forward to love his brothers and sisters and aid them, that is a Christ-like life even if one has never heard of Jesus Christ.

Christianity in general has long driven home the nails in their argument that Jesus saves and works are fruitless, Unfortunately no matter how many nails go in, its too warped a concept to seal tight.

The Qur'an also puts emphasis on deeds: "Verily, God would not wrong by the weight of an atom; and if it's a good work, He will double it and bring from Himself a mighty hire. How then when we bring from every nation a witness, and bring thee as a witness against these on the day when those who misbelieve and rebel against the Apostle would fain that the earth were levelled with them? but they cannot hide the news from God"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

"Nor shalt thou be in any affair, nor shalt thou recite concerning it a Koran- nor shall ye do a work, without our being witness against you, when ye are engaged therein: nor does the weight of an atom escape thy Lord in earth or in heaven; nor is there less than that or greater, but it is in the perspicuous Book."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 10 - Jonah, Peace be on Him)

There is an admonishment in this philosophy, however: "Say, 'Shall we inform you of those who lose most by their works? those who erred in their endeavours after the life of this world, and who think they are doing good deeds.'
Those who misbelieve in the signs of their Lord and in meeting Him, vain are their works; and we will not give them right weight on the resurrection day."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 18 - The Cave)

From the Gospel, we are admonished:
"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Matthew, 7th chapter KJV

" 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. "

Please note that I do not believe there is a "hell" as in a place. One can live in heaven or in hell while they still breathe air on this earth.

In my personal opinion, after reading the works of my faith and others, I believe the judgement of God is, for all, a reward for their faith and their works. In the cases of some they are closer to the presence of God in these worlds of God, for others they are placed far from the warmth of the light of God. This does not mean their spiritual state can never improve, though.

I do not accept the notion of "the Fall" because it belies the Justice of God. I do not believe in total condemnation of any soul, however much it may have abased itself in this life.

I don't accept the notion of the fall because it belies the perfection of God's Creation. If man was not perfect in his nature then all of Creation must be flawed as well.

I had arrived at these beliefs before I ever heard of Baha`u'llah.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Scott1]

Christianity in general has long driven home the nails in their argument that Jesus saves and works are fruitless, Unfortunately no matter how many nails go in, its too warped a concept to seal tight.

Your notion that Christianity believes "works are fruitless" shows your lack of education about orthodox Christianity. It's hard to have a discussion that would bear any fruit when you have formed such ill-informed ideas about Christianity....

.... and the fact that you can't seem to answer any of my questions.

Oh well... I know it must be hard when tough questions are asked that can't be answered with pre-packaged quotes by someone else.

Peace be with you,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Your notion that Christianity believes "works are fruitless" shows your lack of education about orthodox Christianity. It's hard to have a discussion that would bear any fruit when you have formed such ill-informed ideas about Christianity....

.... and the fact that you can't seem to answer any of my questions.

Oh well... I know it must be hard when tough questions are asked that can't be answered with pre-packaged quotes by someone else.

Peace be with you,
Scott

Every question you asked in your last post I addressed. Its not my fault you have as sour a disposition as your avatar.

Regards,
Scott

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Don't Lutherans and Roman Catholics currently have an agreement not to agree on the issues of "faith and works"?

Lutherans believe that "faith alone" is the thing because if you have faith, the works are supposed to be a result, whereas Roman Catholics require both "faith and works" for salvation or whatever.

Lutherans and Roman Catholics: hasten to correct me if I have gotten this wrong.

 

[Scott1]

Every question you asked in your last post I addressed.

I'm sorry... I must have missed them.

Its not my fault you have as sour a disposition as your avatar.

I hope that your mean spirit is a personal problem, and not representative of your faith.

Peace in Christ,
Scott