Original Sin

[riley2112]

hell
alright, i'm 45 yrs old...and i guess since i was about 8 i understood what wrong meant so if i die tomorrow that will be about 37 yrs of sin which hasn't been atoned for...is the payment for my sin really worth an eternity in hell

seems a bit drastic to me....
but of course i'm talking about me :angel2:[/quote]No , the payment for sin is death, not an eternity in hell. If the legal consequence of unforgiven sins according to the Bible was to go at death to hell-fire and stay in torment for all time to come, then for Christ to have paid the penalties for all our sins He would have had to go to that hell-fire and remain there in torment for the rest of eternity. After all, if the wages of sin are to go to an everburning hell without any hope of release, then Christ would have had to go to that hell-fire and stay there in our place for ever to pay the penalty for sin. But three days after Christ died, He was out of the grave and sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven. In no way did He go to any hell-fire and burn forever to pay the penalties for our sins. This is because eternal hell-fire is not the penalty for sin. If it were, then that is where Christ should be. Don't you think?

 

[riley2112]

This now brings us to the second misconception regarding the full Atonement that Christ Jesus worked out for us if eternal death were the punishment for sins, then for Christ to pay that penalty for us, He would have had to die and remain dead for the rest of eternity. Obviously, Christ did not remain dead for all time because He was resurrected from the dead three days later. But if the penalty for sin was eternal death, Christ would still be dead in the grave and never resurrected.
Understand that if the Father had not resurrected Christ—and if He would never have been resurrected—Christ would indeed have remained dead for the rest of eternity. But of course, the punishment for sins had no aspects of eternal death attached to it and the dying of Christ for our sins was the necessary duty to pay the penalty for our many transgressions. Christ’s punishment was not eternal death.

 

[riley2112]

A third misconception people have about God’s punishment for unforgiven sins is that the unrepentant sinner must be separated from God for the rest of eternity
All one has to do is to apply the rules governing the Atonement of Christ to show the silliness of this suggestion. If the punishment for unrepentant sins was everlasting separation from God the Father, then for Christ to pay that penalty for us He would be separated from the Father from the time of His death for all future time. But this did not happen. In three days’ time we find Christ resurrected from the dead and sitting at the right hand of the Father. The theory of eternal separation from God is nonsense. God did not create us to be eternally estranged from Him. He made us all to be part of the divine Family of God. That is why I think we will all wind up with God.

 

[Katzpur]

That is a good question, It seems to come up alot and I have never seem a real answer to it .

From my perspective, we are all born free of sin and begin to sin only as we mature sufficiently to know the difference between right and wrong. We don't need forgiveness for sins we haven't committed, but we do need forgiveness for sins we have committed, and we have all committed plenty of them.

 

[riley2112]

Now here is where it get real interesting ,this is the belief that if a human dies without asking forgiveness of his or her sins, and those sins remain at death on his or her body, soul or spirit, then that person’s opportunity for having sins forgiven is over. That person will then go to hell for eternity to pay his or her punishment for sin. But this teaching and belief is as antichristian and counter to Christ’s efficacious Atonement for mankind as it is possible to get.
The truth is, when Christ died with all the sins of mankind on His person, He Himself died UNREPENTENT of those sins. In other words, it is cardinal Christian doctrine that Christ died a sinner (in place of the world having to die for their sins). Christ died with all the world’s sins upon His divine person. So where does that leave us. I am not really sure. But interesting to think about.

 

[waitasec]

From my perspective, we are all born free of sin and begin to sin only as we mature sufficiently to know the difference between right and wrong. We don't need forgiveness for sins we haven't committed, but we do need forgiveness for sins we have committed, and we have all committed plenty of them.

an abrahamic approach to the same principles of karma...

 

[Sleeppy]

Wasn't the spiritual death of adam and eve separation from god? This does not apply to their decedents?

From the will of God, specifically. Which leads them away from the source of life and other necessities, aside from their inheritance from God and the earth.

i don't get that either?

if a baby is still born, was that still born child sinless and therefore not in need of atonement?

at what point does one need to claim christ's atonement in order to be forgiven?

Obviously not spiritually, but physically. No body from Adam can inherit the Kingdom, therefore, the stillborn needs to be reformed with a new body in Christ.

As soon as possible.

 

[waitasec]

No , the payment for sin is death, not an eternity in hell. If the legal consequence of unforgiven sins according to the Bible was to go at death to hell-fire and stay in torment for all time to come, then for Christ to have paid the penalties for all our sins He would have had to go to that hell-fire and remain there in torment for the rest of eternity.

that make sense to me...but i would bet, not all christians would agree.

After all, if the wages of sin are to go to an everburning hell without any hope of release, then Christ would have had to go to that hell-fire and stay there in our place for ever to pay the penalty for sin. But three days after Christ died, He was out of the grave and sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven. In no way did He go to any hell-fire and burn forever to pay the penalties for our sins. This is because eternal hell-fire is not the penalty for sin. If it were, then that is where Christ should be. Don't you think?[/COLOR]

i've thought the same thing..

 

[riley2112]

that make sense to me...but i would bet, not all christians would agree.


i've thought the same thing..

I have never found anything that three or more Christian could agree on. and I am a Christian.:yes:

 

[waitasec]

Obviously not spiritually, but physically. No body from Adam can inherit the Kingdom, therefore, the stillborn needs to be reformed with a new body in Christ.

where in genesis do you find that, or in the hebrew bible for that matter?

As soon as possible.

why?

 

[waitasec]

I have never found anything that three or more Christian could agree on. and I am a Christian.:yes:

i assume that must be frustrating...

 

[riley2112]

i assume that must be frustrating...

only when I question why we believe the way we believe. They seem to think I should just believe and not question, But I have a problem with that.

 

[waitasec]

only when I question why we believe the way we believe. They seem to think I should just believe and not question, But I have a problem with that.

what a strange way of approaching faith...

it's like having an itch you can't scratch and you're supposed to live with that because, well you're supposed to

 

[riley2112]

what a strange way of approaching faith...

it's like having an itch you can't scratch and you're supposed to live with that because, well you're supposed to

I know, strange huh? I just think that God is the truth, and if I keep looking for the truth, when I find it he will be there, if he is not there then he was not the truth to begin with, does that sound foolish?

 

[Sleeppy]

where in genesis do you find that, or in the hebrew bible for that matter?

why?

Job 34:15 Expire doth all flesh together, And man to dust returneth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, they died spiritually. What I meant earlier to say is that I didn't know whether they had repented (after their spiritual death, obviously). I don't know if they're saved or not, but they died, as God had said.

What does "spiritual death" mean?

 

[waitasec]

Job 34:15 Expire doth all flesh together, And man to dust returneth.

ok i see,
so who can inherit the kingdom?

 

[waitasec]

I know, strange huh? I just think that God is the truth, and if I keep looking for the truth, when I find it he will be there, if he is not there then he was not the truth to begin with, does that sound foolish?

or whatever you thought was the truth really wasn't.
for me, i don't think there is any way to give this idea of god any attributes

 

[Sleeppy]

ok i see,
so who can inherit the kingdom?

Reformed bodies, free from its imperfections and desires contrary to the will of God.

 

[waitasec]

Reformed bodies, free from its imperfections and desires contrary to the will of God.

and where does that idea come from?