Original Sin

[Heathen Hammer]

You're still working from the wrong podium.

God as Creator...attempting to set in motion ...'something' that will render
a sane and functional spirit.

Your post above indicates a dysfunction of spirit.
Your portrayal of God displays it.

Assume life after death....you will encounter 'Something' greater than yourself.

Your perspective of God will render what result?

Well, your devotion to a God who punishes in this manner
shows a dysfunction of spirit. Dolling it up with vague prose doesn't help.

People in this system certainly doesn't foment a sane, functional spirit. And it's the system's fault. the system, as I keep explaining, proposes punishing succeeding generations for a single event, not committed by any of them, in a permanent way. And that such an idea is justice.
It's nothing like justice.

I do assume life after death.
My life after death is beyond the authority of this so-called 'justice' God, and under the auspices of others, who actually know what justice is. But that's off topic.

The life after death you ascribe to, will be like the Garden before the Fall. That was my point.
You insult the idea as it stands if it's my proposal as a solution, yet, you expect that as your reward. How is that not a contradiction?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Assume life after death....you will encounter 'Something' greater than yourself.
Your perspective of God will render what result?

An aside, though, and you've done this before,
How sad is it that the best you can do is dangle your angry God in front of me and use him like a stick to threaten me for my righteous opinion? 'Oh no, don't talk bad about God or he'll send you to eternal torment when you die'.
Seriously?
That's the best your God can do? Be an angry boss in front of whom you can't tell the truth? You cower before him, fearful of even making observations which don't equate to licking his boots?
That indicates a difference in our spirits, all right, and I am thankful for that difference.

 

[riley2112]

Well, your devotion to a God who punishes in this manner
shows a dysfunction of spirit. Dolling it up with vague prose doesn't help.

People in this system certainly doesn't foment a sane, functional spirit. And it's the system's fault. the system, as I keep explaining, proposes punishing succeeding generations for a single event, not committed by any of them, in a permanent way. And that such an idea is justice.
It's nothing like justice.

I do assume life after death.
My life after death is beyond the authority of this so-called 'justice' God, and under the auspices of others, who actually know what justice is. But that's off topic.

The life after death you ascribe to, will be like the Garden before the Fall. That was my point.
You insult the idea as it stands if it's my proposal as a solution, yet, you expect that as your reward. How is that not a contradiction?

Blaming God for punishment for things you do is like blaming the judge when you get a ticket for speeding. Or blaming your mom and dad when you dent the car and they take away the keys. Sounds like a childish outlook to me.

 

[JeshuaJohn]

Yes,the reverend is right no one will suffer for the sins of Adam and Eve and why do we connect the word original sin to Adam and his wife? Original sin has everything to do with satan and no one else.
When Adam consumed the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he brought out in the open the fact that he was capable of sinning, something he was even before he ate. therefore the human was sinful that was his nature and that is what he substantiated by eating the fruit. And you are right it was a setup.

 

[Duck]

Blaming God for punishment for things you do is like blaming the judge when you get a ticket for speeding. Or blaming your mom and dad when you dent the car and they take away the keys. Sounds like a childish outlook to me.

I didn't get that from HH's statement. His objection, like mine, is that the doctrine of Original Sin (as I understand it) dictates that I am inherently going to be punished, regardless of my own actions for the actions of Adam and Eve.

The only person's "sins" that I am eligible for punishment for are mine, what I do I will accept judgement on, but what Original Sin (again, as I understand it and as the sect that I learned this from before I started to follow a more Northerly route) says is that I will be punished simply for being -- the mere fact that I was born is worthy of punishment, and ultimately the whole reason humanity is born worthy of punishment is due to the actions of Adam and Eve -- essentially, I am being punished (or more accurately, am worthy of being punished, and will be punished) because they listened to the one being in the Garden who told the truth, the snake.

 

[riley2112]

I didn't get that from HH's statement. His objection, like mine, is that the doctrine of Original Sin (as I understand it) dictates that I am inherently going to be punished, regardless of my own actions for the actions of Adam and Eve.

The only person's "sins" that I am eligible for punishment for are mine, what I do I will accept judgement on, but what Original Sin (again, as I understand it and as the sect that I learned this from before I started to follow a more Northerly route) says is that I will be punished simply for being -- the mere fact that I was born is worthy of punishment, and ultimately the whole reason humanity is born worthy of punishment is due to the actions of Adam and Eve -- essentially, I am being punished (or more accurately, am worthy of being punished, and will be punished) because they listened to the one being in the Garden who told the truth, the snake.

The snake told the truth? IN Eden we had ever lasting life , now we die.
Punishment for our sins? Christ died with all the world’s sins upon His divine person. “He [God] made him [Christ] to be sin for us,Christ died reckoned by God as an abject sinner and a totally depraved human being. Though sinless, He died totally full of sin.
With the Father, no person today dies in their sins since Christ has borne all of mankind’s sins. It was Christ who died with man’s sins on Him. He died with more sins on Him than any other human. Christ died without repenting of those sins. He died in those sins! So what punishment are you paying for?

 

[Duck]

The snake told the truth? IN Eden we had ever lasting life , now we die.
Punishment for our sins? Christ died with all the world’s sins upon His divine person. “He [God] made him [Christ] to be sin for us,Christ died reckoned by God as an abject sinner and a totally depraved human being. Though sinless, He died totally full of sin.
With the Father, no person today dies in their sins since Christ has borne all of mankind’s sins. It was Christ who died with man’s sins on Him. He died with more sins on Him than any other human. Christ died without repenting of those sins. He died in those sins! So what punishment are you paying for?

What I get out of your statement is that all mankind's sins have been cleared, it is assured that all will go to your heaven, yes? Regardless of belief, action, or statement?

 

[idav]

The snake told the truth? IN Eden we had ever lasting life , now we die.
Punishment for our sins? Christ died with all the world’s sins upon His divine person. “He [God] made him [Christ] to be sin for us,Christ died reckoned by God as an abject sinner and a totally depraved human being. Though sinless, He died totally full of sin.
With the Father, no person today dies in their sins since Christ has borne all of mankind’s sins. It was Christ who died with man’s sins on Him. He died with more sins on Him than any other human. Christ died without repenting of those sins. He died in those sins! So what punishment are you paying for?

Here is the thing. I've keep hearing people say death is the price of sin. Ok so then with the atonement concept either Jesus wouldn't die or Death would go away once the debt was paid. The penalty, death, is still here and christ paid it and we still have to pay it also. With Jesus actually dieing he didn't beat death. He just found a work around and it seems to be that the debt still has not been cleared. All we really need is access to the tree of life which is apparently still inaccessible. The tree of life would change a person living or dead but since we still die, christians had to put it off for sometime in the future after we have already died.

 

[InChrist]

Here is the thing. I've keep hearing people say death is the price of sin. Ok so then with the atonement concept either Jesus wouldn't die or Death would go away once the debt was paid. The penalty, death, is still here and christ paid it and we still have to pay it also. With Jesus actually dieing he didn't beat death. He just found a work around and it seems to be that the debt still has not been cleared. All we really need is access to the tree of life which is apparently still inaccessible. The tree of life would change a person living or dead but since we still die, christians had to put it off for sometime in the future after we have already died.

When the scriptures speak of death as being the penalty for sin it is referring to spiritual death or separation from God the source of life. Physical death is a picture and reminder of this spiritual reality and as long as this world is tainted by sin this reminder remains. Jesus conquered death ad demonstrated this by His resurrection. Anyone who has their sins forgiven and paid for by Christ will also be resurrected to new and eternal life.

 

[riley2112]

What I get out of your statement is that all mankind's sins have been cleared, it is assured that all will go to your heaven, yes? Regardless of belief, action, or statement?

We need to recognize what Christ’s Atonement effected for us and especially what it does not cover. The inspired revelation tells us that His Atonement does not cover our first, physical death. “It is appointed unto men once to die; and then cometh the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). The “death” that Christ died for us is something different than the fleshly death we must all undergo. What Christ secured for us is a legal standing with God the Father regarding the payment of our sins. But this legal standing is only brought into play at the judgment that all of us must undergo when we stand before God (2 Corinthians 5:10). It is God the Father reckoning to us a perfect sinlessness in His sight as it relates to the judgment. At that time, when we come before the bar of judgment, God the Father will open the books to the demerit side of our ledger and He will find it completely free of any censure—even the slightest sins will have been taken care of by Christ on the tree of crucifixion. But that does not mean that we are actually free of the consequences of sin while in the flesh.
Yes, all the sins we have executed against God (and many sins against our fellowman that God abhors), are the sins to be dealt with by Christ paying for our sins on the tree of crucifixion. We get freedom from punishment for those sins at the Judgment after our resurrection from the dead. Remember that Christ’s death for us involves dealing with sins against God, NOT against those that we implemented on earth that our own deaths will remedy. I repeat (because of its importance) our own prophesied deaths are a payment for the sins we now commit. But, as the apostle Paul tells us, we have nothing to fear beyond our deaths, because Christ’s death on the tree takes care of all sins in the eyes of God.
When we appear before God, we will stand as already having paid for our own sins by our physical deaths, and we have also paid for the sins that God the Father reckons against us by the death of Christ (on our behalf) when He died on the Mount of Olives almost 2000 years ago. It is just that simple. You should have no fear of the coming Judgment, because Christ released you completely from any sins that God has ever held against you (or any sins that God may in the future hold against you). Indeed, you have already passed the Judgment triumphantly in Christ, legally, when He was your substitute on the tree of crucifixion. Anyway that is how it sounds to me after reading the word.

 

[Mister Emu]

in other words, is the consequence we bear our mortality?

It is a proclivity towards sin. That is original sin...

The initial cause is God's desire to punish.

Removal from the Garden of Eden was the punishment God gave out... original sin is the state of being fallen that resulted from the act.

I mean, what is 'the cause'?

Man separating himself from the divine.

 

[waitasec]

It is a proclivity towards sin. That is original sin...

so the origin of sin is our inclination.

makes sense since a & e were never immortal to begin with.

but that of course is ignoring our inclination to do good as well.

 

[Thief]

It is a proclivity towards sin. That is original sin...


Removal from the Garden of Eden was the punishment God gave out... original sin is the state of being fallen that resulted from the act.

Man separating himself from the divine.

There was no punishment.
The garden was removed as it had served it's purpose.
Think of it as a petri dish...an experiment of manipulation.

Man didn't separate himself from God.
That was God's choice.

 

[riley2112]

There was no punishment.
The garden was removed as it had served it's purpose.
Think of it as a petri dish...an experiment of manipulation.

Man didn't separate himself from God.
That was God's choice.

What? What in the hell would make you think that?

 

[Blackdog22]

yes it is. And that is why God has put a means in place to rectify the situation.

Our species has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years by conservative estimations and over 200,000 years based on other estimations. You are telling me God didn't get this situation fixed for 98-99% of our species existence on earth, while everyone died and burned in hell?

If God is only capable of fixing something for 1% of the time I have to conclude I am not impressed at all.

 

[Blackdog22]

And you would then be no more than a well trained animal.

Care to step up?

Sort of like what was intended in Gods original plan before we disobeyed, or are you of the belief that God set us up and thus is responsible for original sin?

This argument never makes any sense because, either God intended for us to be robots before we ate of the fruit or God set us up and he is solely responsible for original sin.

I would also ask does Heaven entail robotism? What if you get to heaven and decide you want to go back to drinking and having sex after 100 million years? Are you a robot because you don't have that choice?

Something very obvious about this whole doctrine makes no sense.

 

[Blackdog22]

Not punished for, altered because of...

I doubt that second sentence; when a murderer kills someone, for instance, there are consequences that the family and society of the murdered person experience. These consequences do not in any way imply responsibility.

Not at all, it is just an observance of the reality that we do not act in isolation. Our actions effect others even though they have no responsibility for those actions.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would like to add my 2 cents.

When a murderer kills someone they are punished because of it. The family isn't being punished by the powers that are in charge. They will feel emotionally distraught at the loss of the person who was murdered, but they aren't thrown in jail because person A murdered person B. The biblical account is putting us all in jail for the sins of another. This isn't moral or just in any sense.

 

[Blackdog22]

When the scriptures speak of death as being the penalty for sin it is referring to spiritual death or separation from God the source of life. Physical death is a picture and reminder of this spiritual reality and as long as this world is tainted by sin this reminder remains. Jesus conquered death ad demonstrated this by His resurrection. Anyone who has their sins forgiven and paid for by Christ will also be resurrected to new and eternal life.

As has been pointed out God is 98 to 198,000 years too late, but lets ignore that obvious bit for a moment.

First off what is spiritual death? Secondly, if physical death is a reminder that spiritual death happened, then physical death is a result of spiritual death which is a result of original sin. All you have done is drawn out the point that original sin = death without refuting it in anyway.

If Jesus conquered conquered sin then we shouldn't die as death, as pointed out above, is still a result of original sin that hasn't been refuted. This either makes Jesus a fraud or makes the humble beginnings of Christianity false. Either way it doesn't look good for this particular doctrine.

Also, there is no evidence for anyone being resurrected at all. When Jesus was resurrected he was visible in ghost form and went to visit the disciples, hundreds of people, his mom and brothers. What exactly is your definition of resurrected because it appears to be different from the Bibles idea of it, as in it doesn't appear to happen at all.

 

[Thief]

Sort of like what was intended in Gods original plan before we disobeyed, or are you of the belief that God set us up and thus is responsible for original sin?

This argument never makes any sense because, either God intended for us to be robots before we ate of the fruit or God set us up and he is solely responsible for original sin.

I would also ask does Heaven entail robotism? What if you get to heaven and decide you want to go back to drinking and having sex after 100 million years? Are you a robot because you don't have that choice?

Something very obvious about this whole doctrine makes no sense.

Actually...too much assumption on your part.

My belief.....Day Six....all things that walk....including Man...as a species.

No names...no law....no garden....no restrictions....
Go forth be fruitful and multiply.
We did.

Day Seven....rest...no more will be created.

Apparently Man was behaving too much like an animal.
Dominating everything around him, including his fellowman.

Chapter Two...a story of manipulation.
Adam is a chosen son of God, set into ideal living conditions.
The body is altered, and cloned.
The pair are then exposed to a choice.....they took it.

The choice made, indicated the alteration had taken hold.
From that point forward, Man would seek knowledge.....
even in the face of death.

 

[4consideration]

Here is something that bugs me and I would like to discuss. It seems that Christianity (perhaps other religions also, I am unsure) teaches that we are born with "original sin", which is inherited because of Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden. WE are held responsible for the sins of SOMEONE ELSE. I cannot see how this belief makes sense.


The same things bugged me as long as I considered original sin in the way that it was taught to me and seemed to be held by other christian denominations that I came across from time to time.


Many common definitions refer to original sin as a type of stain or mark on the soul, and under that definition it seems unreasonable and unfair to start off life trying to make up for something you didn't even do. I found that to be an awful concept.


I now understand the term original sin differently than I used to, and for me, it makes all the difference.


I was in a seminar and the teacher mentioned an original meaning for the word sin that I had never heard before. Apparently, the root meaning of the word sin from Greek is an archery term meaning to miss the mark. Quite simply, an error.

That is a definition of sin that I can reconcile with Love (God.)


Original sin then becomes an original error.


In any situation of logic, if you begin with error, you will end up with error -- even if your logic is perfect.


As I see it now, Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and in so doing, attempted to search for understanding of Good and Evil through Knowledge, the mind. The mind functions through the use of logic. Logic is linear.


The mind usually processes information by first establishing a polarity - for the purpose of analysis and comparison. Then it applies logic. It is simply the wrong tool and the wrong process to use for the subject -- and for a wholistic understanding of life.


The mind first establishes a polarity, then inserts data into that polarity. Good vs. Evil. Then, in an attempt to achieve balance, it judges -- and a state of separation results.

A sinful nature is simply being prone to error. That makes sense to me. But, it does not mean that a person is bad by nature.


There is a lot of error in the world. We all have to interact with those errors or some results of those errors. We, too, will make errors.


First, if god is loving and forgiving, why would he hold an everlasting grudge against humans? If it is so that we must accept Christ, it seems kind of like a set up...


I do not believe that God holds any grudge, much less an everlasting grudge against humans. I also believe that Christ brought tremendous wisdom and understanding to the earth. He demonstrated a wholistic understanding of life.


I really think that Jesus was basically saying, look this is a WAY OF BEING (honoring wholeness in all that is). Unity is already here. If you want to feel whole and be with God, stop separating from him, from yourself, from each other.



Second, why should we even be held responsible for the sins of another in general?


We should not be held responsible for the sins (or errors) of another. However, we may run into them at any point in time. Sometimes they impose themselves into a person's life -- like some random awful act that we may read in the news, or we may have inherited the result of some error in our family and have to see it to completion in some way, like a legacy.


Nobody is responsible for the sins of another in any other case outside of this one. Why is this one held against all of humanity? Again, it seems like a set up.


The human family will have to deal with all of the results of all of the errors as they play out through cause and effect. It is wise to treat each other well.


I also believe that there is such a thing as the law of Grace. And that, I think, is when Love heals and restores wholeness to a state of separation (or division in wholeness) created by an error. The imbalance is corrected wholistically and immediately and it is no longer necessary for the situation to continue to play out through cause and effect for balance.


Discuss

(I only briefly skimmed the replies to this original post, so I am only addressing the original questions at this time.)