Original Sin

[Mister Emu]

The biblical account is putting us all in jail for the sins of another.

How do you figure?

 

[Me Myself]

How do you figure?

How do you not?

 

[Me Myself]

Removal from the Garden of Eden was the punishment God gave out... original sin is the state of being fallen that resulted from the act.

A state that God decided that should be hereditary while when Jesus made stuff right, not everyone was saved just by it.

So when Adam and Eve go wrong, we have not choice but to be tainted, even if we don´t even heard of Adam and Eve. But when Jesus "saves" us, we can only be saved from this that we were inocent in the first place (because every sin yo´ve commited came froma state of "imposibility to not-sin" that we didn´t choose) if we KNOW, BELIEVE and ACCEPT the right doctrine for salvation.

So when we don´t know right from wrong God is a visible being that has obvious contact with us and tell us what to do and what not (even when in our stupid state, we won´t understand that disobeying him is wrong) but when we can actually tell a difference, he makes a real effort to not give us morals through a completely believable authority as he did with our retard grand grandparents.

You ask me, he is just putting bets on us to see which are not. Given that he knew before creating each one of us, I say angels and devils betting against him are ****** .

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Blaming God for punishment for things you do is like blaming the judge when you get a ticket for speeding. Or blaming your mom and dad when you dent the car and they take away the keys. Sounds like a childish outlook to me.

It's nothing like it, since the same judge forces my car to accelerate without my ability to brake.

These analogies are really nothing like the situation we are discussing, anyway.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The snake told the truth? IN Eden we had ever lasting life , now we die.
Punishment for our sins? Christ died with all the world’s sins upon His divine person. “He [God] made him [Christ] to be sin for us,Christ died reckoned by God as an abject sinner and a totally depraved human being. Though sinless, He died totally full of sin.
With the Father, no person today dies in their sins since Christ has borne all of mankind’s sins. It was Christ who died with man’s sins on Him. He died with more sins on Him than any other human. Christ died without repenting of those sins. He died in those sins! So what punishment are you paying for?

As I mentioned in a previous post the serpent told the truth in Eden. And actually, there is a lot of reason to doubt Adam and Eve were possessed of everlasting life; the presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden, which God mentions they NEVER ate of, implies a host of trickery on this subject.

As for Christ dieing with all humanity's sins, since he was not a human and also ascended, well, those sins on him, even unrepentant, really meant nothing. He should have gone to and stayed in, Hell; we certainly get as much for far, far less.

 

[Cesar]

As I mentioned in a previous post the serpent told the truth in Eden. And actually, there is a lot of reason to doubt Adam and Eve were possessed of everlasting life; the presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden, which God mentions they NEVER ate of, implies a host of trickery on this subject.

As for Christ dieing with all humanity's sins, since he was not a human and also ascended, well, those sins on him, even unrepentant, really meant nothing. He should have gone to and stayed in, Hell; we certainly get as much for far, far less.

As the Bible declares, He suffered hell on the cross in the place of believers. So its effect is actually infinite and it doesn't require sacrife afterr sacrifice after sacrifice. Also, how was not Jesus human? The bible teaches He was God INCARNATE.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

As the Bible declares, He suffered hell on the cross in the place of believers. So its effect is actually infinite and it doesn't require sacrife afterr sacrifice after sacrifice. Also, how was not Jesus human? The bible teaches He was God INCARNATE.

He suffered in Hell for a mere moment of days. I am aware of what the bible says, thank you; that's why I bring all this up. How is Jesus sacrifice infinite [as ours must be] when he sits at God's right hand and came back to Earth only days later etc? And since we agree he was not a human, his suffering was much less, wasn't it? Further reinforcing my point.
Why do we wind up in Hell eternally, then?

 

[Cesar]

He suffered in Hell for a mere moment of days. I am aware of what the bible says, thank you; that's why I bring all this up. How is Jesus sacrifice infinite [as ours must be] when he sits at God's right hand and came back to Earth only days later etc?
Why do we wind up in Hell eternally, then?

He suffered hell on the cross. I really don't believe that He went to suffer to a fiery place, where He burned for three days. Rather, all sins of the world were upon Him, He was forsaken by the Father because He was now bearing all sins - murder, lies, theft, lust, adultery, greed, fraud and so on. Due to His nature, however, which is infinite, unlike our finite natures, He was able to pay the ransom for all sins, thus having no need to suffer forever. Remember, that He is God (and human at the same time). We, on the other hand, are unable to ever pay for our sins and that is why Christ died on the cross for us.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

He suffered hell on the cross. I really don't believe that He went to suffer to a fiery place, where He burned for three days. Rather, all sins of the world were upon Him, He was forsaken by the Father because He was now bearing all sins - murder, lies, theft, lust, adultery, greed, fraud and so on. Due to His nature, however, which is infinite, unlike our finite natures, He was able to pay the ransom for all sins, thus having no need to suffer forever. Remember, that He is God (and human at the same time). We, on the other hand, are unable to ever pay for our sins and that is why Christ died on the cross for us.

All right well, first then we have to face that your take appears to vary with the general acceptance of the scripture. Suffering 'Hell on the cross' does not add much to your argument though, since what he went through on the cross was, in essence, child's play for a being who is immortal and will ascend to control Heaven. I could even add 'control Heaven once again' but I am unaware if you adhere to the doctrine that Jesus was present at Creation.
He paid an extremely discounted price even as you describe it; that is my point. And we are still responsible for paying the same price, and much more.

Your statement that "We, on the other hand, are unable to ever pay for our sins and that is why Christ died on the cross for u" is even more confusing as eternal torment, whether it pays for all sin or not, is really all the same. It matters not whether it evens accounts with God, because we still burn for eternity regardless. At that point we really won't care if God is satisfied or not. The torture itself will consume all that is left of our ability to 'contemplate'.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I feel confident in saying that any sinner facing the idea of Hell would give it all to merely experience the meager suffering Jesus went through in 3 hours on a cross instead. Child's play..

 

[Me Myself]

I feel confident in saying that any sinner facing the idea of Hell would give it all to merely experience the meager suffering Jesus went through in 3 hours on a cross instead. Child's play..

Heaven they might call it

 

[Cesar]

All right well, first then we have to face that your take appears to vary with the general acceptance of the scripture. Suffering 'Hell on the cross' does not add much to your argument though, since what he went through on the cross was, in essence, child's play for a being who is immortal and will ascend to control Heaven. I could even add 'control Heaven once again' but I am unaware if you adhere to the doctrine that Jesus was present at Creation.
He paid an extremely discounted price even as you describe it; that is my point. And we are still responsible for paying the same price, and much more.

Your statement that "We, on the other hand, are unable to ever pay for our sins and that is why Christ died on the cross for u" is even more confusing as eternal torment, whether it pays for all sin or not, is really all the same. It matters not whether it evens accounts with God, because we still burn for eternity regardless. At that point we really won't care if God is satisfied or not. The torture itself will consume all that is left of our ability to 'contemplate'.

Yes, I do believe that Christ, being God, was there when He created the world. It was not a "discounted" price. It's about quality (the ability to actually pay for those sins) not quantity. The point was to pay for those sins instead of just suffering continually - and Christ paid it in full.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "as eternal torment, whether it pays for all sin or not, is really all the same". Could you please clarify?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes, I do believe that Christ, being God, was there when He created the world. It was not a "discounted" price. It's about quality (the ability to actually pay for those sins) not quantity. The point was to pay for those sins instead of just suffering continually - and Christ paid it in full.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "as eternal torment, whether it pays for all sin or not, is really all the same". Could you please clarify?

Ah! OK, so you do think that Jesus was always present, ok, thank you.

But I must state that yes, it is a discounted price. A mortal being suffering for eternity is FAR more than an immortal being, with all the knowledge he possesses [ie., he knew of the afterlife with certainty, knew he would return after a momentary death, and would in fact come out more powerful after that short experience; he possessed no fear at all] suffering for a mere three or so hours.

I understand what the point of his suffering was but in terms of scale humans go through far worse on a regular basis.

As for the clarification: what I mean is, that after a short time relatively speaking sinners will not care at all whether God is satisfied, whether their sins are paid or not. When you are trapped forever in Hell, you will not be caring at all what your jailer thinks. Your entire consciousness, such as it will be, will be occupied experiencing suffering. It is essentially a similar concept to the idea that a tortured prisoner cannot be relied upon to give accurate information; his mind is so occupied by pleading for the torture to stop that he cannot be trusted to think coherently or be honest. Similar but not exact. Any lesson it was hoped you will learn by your punishment will be lost on you. And you will bear no sympathy nor understanding of your tormentor, God. You will despise him, in the end.

 

[Cesar]

Ah! OK, so you do think that Jesus was always present, ok, thank you.

But I must state that yes, it is a discounted price. A mortal being suffering for eternity is FAR more than an immortal being, with all the knowledge he possesses [ie., he knew of the afterlife with certainty, knew he would return after a momentary death, and would in fact come out more powerful after that short experience; he possessed no fear at all] suffering for a mere three or so hours.

I understand what the point of his suffering was but in terms of scale humans go through far worse on a regular basis.

As for the clarification: what I mean is, that after a short time relatively speaking sinners will not care at all whether God is satisfied, whether their sins are paid or not. When you are trapped forever in Hell, you will not be caring at all what your jailer thinks. Your entire consciousness, such as it will be, will be occupied experiencing suffering. It is essentially a similar concept to the idea that a tortured prisoner cannot be relied upon to give accurate information; his mind is so occupied by pleading for the torture to stop that he cannot be trusted to think coherently or be honest. Similar but not exact. Any lesson it was hoped you will learn by your punishment will be lost on you. And you will bear no sympathy nor understanding of your tormentor, God. You will despise him, in the end.

It's far more in terms of quantity, not quality. Even in a 1000 years, we cannot pay for a single sin, unlike Christ, Who paid for all the sins of believers as He was dying on the cross. You're trying to limit God's effect, but it was far greater than anything humans could have ever possibly achieved.

So you're addressing a damned person's state in hell. To be honest, I have no idea what such a person experiences. They may be going through extreme guilt and suffering at the same time, or just suffering. I don't know about that. But they certainly cannot even think of repenting, that I believe.
I do not believe that hell is a 'lesson', as you put it. It seemed in your earlier post that you suggested that Christ's sacrifice was not universal, since some or many people would nonetheless perish; still, I never said that Christ had died for all humanity. I believe, instead, that He died for those whom He had elected/predestined unto salvation and He paid for their sins (in full) only, while the "vessels of wrath" would continue to be blind to the holy message of God.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

It's far more in terms of quantity, not quality. Even in a 1000 years, we cannot pay for a single sin, unlike Christ, Who paid for all the sins of believers as He was dying on the cross.

I don't think this means anything.
What, exactly, passed for him that is so different? What, precisely, is so much greater in 'quality' from Jesus that outdoes by even a tiny bit the eternal suffering of a mortal? Like I said, anyone would volunteer to take his place.
In this sacrifice, what you achieve is completely pointless; it's what you lose, that actually counts.
And frankly as we speak here, I am not seeing what Jesus achieved in any case. Since Sin and Hell went nowhere. Nothing changed, at all.

So you're addressing a damned person's state in hell. To be honest, I have no idea what such a person experiences. They may be going through extreme guilt and suffering at the same time, or just suffering. I don't know about that. But they certainly cannot even think of repenting, that I believe.
I do not believe that hell is a 'lesson', as you put it. It seemed in your earlier post that you suggested that Christ's sacrifice was not universal, since some or many people would nonetheless perish; still, I never said that Christ had died for all humanity. I believe, instead, that He died for those whom He had elected/predestined unto salvation and He paid for their sins (in full) only, while the "vessels of wrath" would continue to be blind to the holy message of God.

In its entirety then this statement makes Christ's "sacrifice" even less valid.

If only a few receive the benefit then how was his taking of all sin, sensible in any way? This idea then invalidates any good, but non-elect, Christian's efforts, notwithstanding any nonbeliever who lives a good life and commits no wrong.

I think what you wish not to face is the actual implications of my statements concerning how Hell is essentially the ultimate injustice, given the entirety of actual Christian doctrine. Well, that and the invalidation of any actual sacrifice from Jesus.

Without a permanent loss, there is no sacrifice.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What did Jesus risk? What did Jesus lose? that answer to both questions appears to be 'nothing'.

That invalidates any sacrifice.

 

[Cesar]

I don't think this means anything.
What, exactly, passed for him that is so different? Like I said, anyone would volunteer to take his place.


In its entirety then this statement makes Christ's "sacrifice" even less valid.

If only a few receive the benefit then how was his taking of all sin, sensible in any way? This idea then invalidates any good, but non-elect, Christian's efforts, notwithstanding any nonbeliever who lives a good life and commits no wrong.

I think what you wish not to face is the actual implications of my statements concerning how Hell is essentially the ultimate injustice, given the entirety of actual Christian doctrine. Well, that and the invalidation of any actual sacrifice from Jesus.

Without a permanent loss, there is no sacrifice.

I don't know if anyone would volunteer to do that, but they'd still be powerless to accomplish anything, unlike Christ. He was taking the sins of all His people. The Bible declares that there are none that do good. Kind David said that people are born evil, because that's their nature even in the womb. We're in a state of total depravity and the carnal man cannot please God, because he can only sin continually. So there's no such thing as a "virtuous man". Even Christians sin after regeneration, because they are getting perfected, however, they're not sinless yet.

It's not injustice, quite on the contrary. It is the punishment for people's wrongdoings (sin), whose wage cannot be paid by humans no matter how much they suffer.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't know if anyone would volunteer to do that, but they'd still be powerless to accomplish anything, unlike Christ. He was taking the sins of all His people. The Bible declares that there are none that do good. Kind David said that people are born evil, because that's their nature even in the womb. We're in a state of total depravity and the carnal man cannot please God, because he can only sin continually. So there's no such thing as a "virtuous man". Even Christians sin after regeneration, because they are getting perfected, yet they're not sinless yet.

It's not injustice, quite on the contrary. It is the punishment for people's wrongdoings (sin), whose wage cannot be paid by humans no matter how much they suffer.

It's the definition of injustice, Im afraid.

You highlight many more reasons here. If we cannot expect to please God, why does he require that we do, KNOWING we cannot?
Why did he MAKE US this way if he knew we would never please him or live up to any of his expectations?
If the wage cannot be paid why is it just to expect it?
If we cannot achieve perfection why are we punished for not doing so?

It's all injustice. Top to bottom. The more you speak the more it is highlighted.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

It seems that basically this idea is never thought all the way through by those who embrace it. The implications are horrendous.

 

[Cesar]

It's the definition of injustice, Im afraid.

You highlight many more reasons here. If we cannot expect to please God, why does he require that we do, KNOWING we cannot?
If the wage cannot be paid why is it just to expect it?
If we cannot achieve perfect why are we punished for not doing so?

It's all injustice. Top to bottom. The more you speak the more it is highlighted.

As a humanist, you expect man to be the measure of all things. However, it's God Who reveals truth, justice, beauty and so on to us, not we ourselves through our "reason", "feelings" etc. God created us with a purpose, one that He didn't abandon just because people absolutely love evil and detest good. The books of Ecclesiastes and Romans declares that, through all our philosophies and human understanding, we have never been able to find God, the one true God. That's why Adam and Eve fell - they chose to listen to their own "reason" and leave aside the divine Revelation telling them that they would die, which they did (first, spiritually, becoming enslaved to sin and utterly unable to do good; and then, physically). So they drew conclusions based on their own rather than listening to their Creator.

Again, it's God Who establishes what's moral, just, beautiful, righteous, not our fallen human senses, which have only led us farther from God.
Paul answered such a question in his time as well: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" Romans 9:20-23