Original Sin

[Heathen Hammer]

As a humanist, you expect man to be the measure of all things. However, it's God Who reveals truth, justice, beauty and so on to us, not we ourselves through our "reason", "feelings" etc. God created us with a purpose, one that He didn't abandon just because people absolutely love evil and detest good. The books of Ecclesiastes and Romans declares that, through all our philosophies and human understanding, we have never been able to find God, the one true God. That's why Adam and Eve fell - they chose to listen to their own "reason" and leave aside the divine Revelation telling them that they would die, which they did (first, spiritually, becoming enslaved to sin and utterly unable to do good; and then, physically). So they drew conclusions based on their own rather than listening to their Creator.

Well, this is the Dog Whisperer Fallacy, Im afraid.
If God's system makes no sense to anyone except himself, it serves no moral purpose to those encumbered by it.
If God created us then he is responsible for the fact that we love evil and detest good. HE created the circumstances that made us this way. There is nothing we did, nor could w do, which is other than in his plan. We do not possess that power.
There is no 'higher reason', there is only reason. I understand that you need to pretend there is a higher method, because even in man's simple reason, this system is unjust. And because you cannot grasp that, well, there must be a magical explanation.

There isn't.

Again, it's God Who establishes what's moral, just, beautiful, righteous, not our fallen human senses, which have only led us farther from God.

In other words, 'might makes right'.

Paul answered such a question in his time as well: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" Romans 9:20-23

Paul did not answer this question well, though, Im afraid. He simply made the same excuse.
We are not clay; we are thinking rational beings. You break clay; humans are tortured. By God. For eternity.

 

[Cesar]

Well, this is the Dog Whisperer Fallacy, Im afraid.
If God's system makes no sense to anyone except himself, it serves no moral purpose to those encumbered by it.
If God created us then he is responsible for the fact that we love evil and detest good. HE created the circumstances that made us this way. There is nothing we did, nor could w do, which is other than in his plan. We do not possess that power.
There is no 'higher reason', there is only reason. I understand that you need to pretend there is a higher method, because even in man's simple reason, this system is unjust. And because you cannot grasp that, well, there must be a magical explanation.

There isn't.


In other words, 'might makes right'.

Paul did not answer this question well, though, Im afraid. He simply made the same excuse.
We are not clay; we are thinking rational beings. You break clay; humans are tortured. By God.

I never said it didn't make sense to anyone, but that we can't discover a perfect, holy Being through our imperfect, fallen senses.

It's not that 'might = right'. God, however, as the Book of Ecclesiastes puts it, is the ultimate purpose of humankind and the meaning of life. He is the Origin of truth, justice, beauty, He is holy, perfect, just and good. We are quite the opposite due to the fall of the Edenic couple.

He's not responsible for what we do. He created Adam and Eve perfect - they were able to please God and to worship Him in Spirit, until they fell by their own choice and spread sin like a disease. In Genesis, God talks about the creation as being "very good".

I don't think Paul needed to answer the question. It's pretty much a question that doesn't even deserve a reply when it's coming from an unregenerate heart. Of course, it was a metaphor. It doesn't mean that we're literally clay and God is a literal potter. It means that He is the Creator and we are the created.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

If one wishes to say that God's punishment comes because God says so, that's fine; just don't attempt to also use the word 'justice' when speaking of it. 'Justice' means something specific. And it does not apply to this system.

I recognize the desire to apply all positive superlatives to God's ways. Even when they are contradictory. I understand the desire to avoid using any negative superlative under any circumstance.

But you cannot do so honestly.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I never said it didn't make sense to anyone, but that we can't discover a perfect, holy Being through our imperfect, fallen senses.

Of course you never said it didn't maker sense. but it doesn't make sense.
Still, Dog Whisperer Fallacy all the same.

He's not responsible for what we do.

He is.

He created Adam and Eve perfect - they were able to please God and to worship Him in Spirit, until they fell by their own choice and spread sin like a disease. In Genesis, God talks about the creation as being "very good".

They did not make an actual choice [this whole thread has been discussing this subject]. They were ignorant of Good and Evil, made that way deliberately by God.. A choice made in ignorance is not a capable choice.

I don't think Paul needed to answer the question.

Then why did you cite him?

It's pretty much a question that doesn't even deserve a reply when it's coming from an unregenerate heart. Of course, it was a metaphor. It doesn't mean that we're literally clay and God is a literal potter. It means that He is the Creator and we are the created.

Well, if that's your attitude then I understand why you can't honestly engage in discussion.
I understand the metaphor better than you, it seems.

 

[Cesar]

Then why did you cite him?

Well, if that's your attitude then I understand why you can't honestly engage in discussion. Get stuffed.
I understand the metaphor better than you, it seems.

I was quoting a Christian in the first century AD due to his attitude to such a question.

I have, actually, participated in the discussion. I never said "I'm right, you're wrong. End of discussion". But maybe you're right we should stop here. My purpose was not to convert you or anyone. I've said what I had to say, the same for you.

 

[Cesar]

My bad for the first post that "he answered" the question. I only meant he addressed the question.

Well, it's "injustice" from your humanistic viewpoint, in which I'm not terribly interested, just as I don't care what I myself "feel". I'm interested in God.

You can go on doing what you want. I'm not here to restrict you.
You sound as if I myself rejected Christianity, which I definitely don't. I don't find anything 'disturbing' or 'wicked' in it. And I'm talking about Biblical Christianity, not the Inquisition or whatever like that. I was not insulting you on purpose and I didn't mean for you to take it personally. I'm still not taking back what I said.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

My bad for the first post that "he answered" the question. I only meant he addressed the question.

It was simply odd that you abandoned him as soon as you cited him... not an important point.

Well, it's "injustice" from your humanistic viewpoint, in which I'm not terribly interested, just as I don't care what I myself "feel". I'm interested in God.

Whatever that means. You will agree with your tyrant, that's fine as I said. Just don't use words for what he does which don't actually apply. 'Justice' would be one of those words. It has a definition and that definition does not apply here.

You sound as if I myself rejected Christianity, which I definitely don't. I don't find anything 'disturbing' or 'wicked' in it. And I'm talking about Biblical Christianity, not the Inquisition or whatever like that. I was not insulting you on purpose and I didn't mean for you to take it personally. I'm still not taking back what I said.

??
Well, what you are referring to may or may not be biblical. You mentioned some small things that may or may not be mainstream; we often find Christians here who believe they have the one true way, yet they disagree with others who think the same about their interpretation. Its not my purpose to determine which of you is actually biblical [and you will all claim to be biblical], merely to discuss it in whatever frame you are using. And to show where your logical or rational errors are.

I can't imagine how calling me an unregenerate heart and telling me my questions don't deserve a response, can be "unintentional", but you then snap that you don't care and aren't apologizing. Very Christian of you

We know you by your fruits, indeed.

 

[Cesar]

It was simply odd that you abandoned him as soon as you cited him... not an important point.
I can't imagine how calling me an unregenerate heart and telling me my questions don't deserve a response, can be "unintentional", but you then snap that you don't care and aren't apologizing. Very Christian of you

We know you by your fruits, indeed.

I didn't abandon him. I just said he addressed the same question and didn't believe it deserved an answer. I was referring to the question regarding why God still demands certain things of us, so I didn't say all your questions didn't deserve an answer.

Again, it was not a personal thing. But I'm not doing to make the truth seem sweeter just so you won't feel insulted.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I've been showing you the truth isn't sweet at all; you wish to make it appear so.

Also, Im not a humanist. But that's also a small point.

 

[Cesar]

I've been showing you the truth isn't sweet at all; you wish to make it appear so.

Also, Im not a humanist. But that's also a small point.

You begin with man, Christianity begins with God. And that's what I mean my humanist.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You begin with man, Christianity begins with God. And that's what I mean my humanist.

I do not begin with man; the morality of the Gods is what gives us our morality. And our ability to reason. They are our example. When they begin saying 'do what I say because I demand it!', it is their echo of wisdom which we possess which allows us to recognize that this is an edict, which is not the same thing as justice. It's simply "do what I demand'.

Don't call a pig a horse.

 

[Cesar]

I do not begin with man; the morality of the Gods is what gives us our morality. And our ability to reason. They are our example. When they begin saying 'do what I say because I demand it!', it is their echo of wisdom which we possess which allows us to recognize that this is an edict, which is not the same thing as justice. It's simply "do what I demand'.

Don't call a pig a horse.

What exactly do you believe in? What gods?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I am a Norse Heathen

 

[Cesar]

I am a Norse Heathen

Okay

 

[Thief]

And on top of this I would say.....

Scapegoating does not work. Your sins are your own.

The Carpenter saved no one by dying. His salvation is in His parables.
If His word is not upon your mind and heart....
He will not see His reflection in you.

After you surrender your last breath, the angels will come to see what stands up from the 'broken' clay.
They have the judgment call.
They will ask, and you will respond.
What you say will make all the difference.

They will allow you to follow, or leave you where you fell.

Original sin?
Someone had to be first.
Dogma points to the first two people to walk with God.
That's as for as that discussion should ever have gone.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Original Sin is God's.

No point in scapegoating us.

 

[Thief]

Original Sin is God's.

No point in scapegoating us.

Nay.

But you'll have to be more specific with your accusation.

Pointing the finger at the Almighty?
Good luck with that!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Another interesting conundrum:

Since we all are inclined to evil, unable to fathom God's "reasoning", and are unregenerate hearts,
since we are all apparently unable to puzzle out God's system,

Perhaps we are so deluded by our inequities that God's system actually IS unjust, and the most pious are those whose reasoning faculties are the most inept at understanding what justice is? Perhaps your God has been lieing to you this entire time, knowing full well that, made deliberately imperfect as you are [by him, since the Garden], you are easily fooled and can be lead by Orwellian doublespeak?

It is just as likely you are wrong, as we are. Moreso, in fact, since you refuse to trust any human result..

But of course you never face that possibility, do you?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Nay.

But you'll have to be more specific with your accusation.

Pointing the finger at the Almighty?
Good luck with that!

Im not scared by your threats.

And the answer is still 'aye'.

It is more courageous to oppose a tyrant and die a hero, than to agree to live in slavery forever.

But, again, most folks prefer to be slaves.

 

[Thief]

Im not scared by your threats.

And the answer is still 'aye'.

No threat.

But do you believe in a 'greater than you'?
If so...and you blame Him...what then?