Original Sin

[metis]

Have you any evidence that I am incorrect?
Let's be honest the Catholic Church admitted Purgatory was made up about 20-years ago.
Where in the Bible is original sin mentioned?
The Trinity - please explain how that works?

We've been though some of this before, and I have no interest to continue on with this, but I will say that the burden of proof doesn't fall upon me but upon you to prove that these interpretations are in error. If you truly are interested in finding out where their (RCC, OC, & Anglican) interpretations come from, including their scriptural basis, why don't you spend time to actually look it up using their sources or more objective sources.

Here's a start for ya:

Purgatory - Wikipedia

Original sin - Wikipedia

Trinity - Wikipedia



For a good Catholic source, maybe check this: Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[metis]

Let's be honest the Catholic Church admitted Purgatory was made up about 20-years ago.

Could you link me to your source for that?

 

[outlawState]

Ephesians 2:33
All of us once lived among these people, and followed the desires of our corrupt nature.
We did what our corrupt desires and thoughts wanted us to do.
So, because of our nature, we deserved God’s anger just like everyone else.
​

Two points. (a) There is no Eph 2:33, (b) If you mean Eph 2:3, then I suggest that "corrupt nature" is not actually found in the Greek. It is an Augustinian interpretation that you are quoting, not a word-for-word translation,

 

[exchemist]

I'm hoping with an open mind.

I for one believed this for many years. The issue that really changed everything for me, was starting to see that most of my faith was in my doctrines and not in God. Sadly much of Christianity is built upon doctrines that were introduced years after the death of Christ, they also include the virgin birth another sacred cow.

Oddly enough I have, by coincidence, just had a go at this on another thread, here:
"Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve"

I don't claim this to be orthodox theology but it makes sense to me. I cannot say that Original Sin ever gave me a guilt trip during my Catholic upbringing, just a consciousness that we all have a predisposition to sin!

 

[Kenny]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE

Author: Jesus didn't believe in 'original sin' and neither should we - Religion News Service

Jesus Taught That Little Children Are Without Sin

Jesus taught that little children are without sin and belong to the kingdom of heaven:

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 18:3
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14

"And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them and blessed them." Mark 10:13-16

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." Luke 18:16-17

Mark 10:16 says: "And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them." These were innocent little children and not sinners under the wrath of God. And Jesus did not say that they were sinners and enemies of God, but he said, "of such is the kingdom of God."

Were they without sin? Or without judgment?

I ask these questions because I wonder if we are talking about two different animals here.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE

Author: Jesus didn't believe in 'original sin' and neither should we - Religion News Service

This misapplication of Scripture and the author of your posted article just negated one of the main reasons Jesus came to Earth.

-- Romans 5:12..."Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin...."

-- 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If our sinful, i.e., imperfect, condition wasn't caused by Adam, then calling Jesus, "the Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians, has no meaning.

If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?

To be like children, means to be the opposite of arrogant; rather, humble and meek, willing to mold ourselves to be pleasing to God.

 

[QuestioningMind]

This misapplication of Scripture and the author of your posted article just negated one of the main reasons Jesus came to Earth.

-- Romans 5:12..."Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin...."

-- 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If our sinful, i.e., imperfect, condition wasn't caused by Adam, then calling Jesus, "the Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians, has no meaning.

If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?

To be like children, means to be the opposite of arrogant; rather, humble and meek, willing to mold ourselves to be pleasing to God.

"If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?"

Are you seriously suggesting that all children born with deformities or who die from cancer or genetic deficiencies are being punished by God for some perceived sin? And you worship such a horrendous God?

 

[Trackdayguy]

"If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?"

Are you seriously suggesting that all children born with deformities or who die from cancer or genetic deficiencies are being punished by God for some perceived sin? And you worship such a horrendous God?

Your right that's a pretty sick concept.

 

[Axe Elf]

And god even referenced what he had done.

Genesis 8:21
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
​

And a sin can't get much earlier than Adam's to be original.

Yeah, looking into it a bit Jesus doesn't seem to have mentioned "original sin" by name, probably because the concept wasn't given a label until the second century; however, just because he didn't identify it by name doesn't mean he didn't think it existed. Before Jesus' time the notion was mentioned in the OT.

Psalm 51:5 says
"I was born to do wrong,
a sinner before I left my mother’s womb."
​

And after Jesus it was also referred to.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us once lived among these people, and followed the desires of our corrupt nature.
We did what our corrupt desires and thoughts wanted us to do.
So, because of our nature, we deserved God’s anger just like everyone else.​

​

Skwim has hit on the essence of original sin here; original sin is nothing more than our human nature of selfishness, which fundamentally separates us from God and His nature of love (selfishness, not hate, is the opposite of love). Selfishness helps us to survive and thrive in the physical world, but it is also the root of all evil. In fact, sin is nothing more than separation from God ("missing the mark" as some put it), so it's easy to see how all sin is rooted in the "original" sin of wanting to be our own gods.

 

[Skwim]

Two points. (a) There is no Eph 2:33, (b) If you mean Eph 2:3, then I suggest that "corrupt nature" is not actually found in the Greek. It is an Augustinian interpretation that you are quoting, not a word-for-word translation,

Thank you for catching my oversight, It was a typo that should, and now does, read "Ephesians 2:3."

As I've pointed out before in other threads, what scholars have concluded was the wording in the original manuscripts is unimportant---for one thing, there's little agreement. What is important is what idea is transmitted by those who put together today's Bibles. At least four Bibles use the word "corrupt" in Eph 2:3, whereas others use, "passion," "desires," "cravings," and "lusts," among other terms. So it's really a crap shoot as to which best expresses the intention of the original writer. What these variations do provide are theological cherries to pick so as to flesh out ones theology as one sees fit. In one sense, Christianity is a true do-it-yourself religion. Don't like how the King James Bible translates the Hebrew ra in Isaiah 45:7 as "evil"? then you can pick the Amplified Bible that translates the word as "disaster," or the World English Bible that translates it as "calamity," or the New Life version that has watered down the meaning to just "trouble," or other Bibles that tell us god simply created "woe."

"Evil"
"Disaster"
"Calamity"
"trouble"
"Woe"
​

Hardly decent synonyms of one another. It's as if god really doesn't give a **** what his book says, or what his followers believe. So, the Bible having been redrafted and re-translated so many times and in so many different ways, what the original writers wrote is immaterial. And people don't read the original manuscripts.

.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Thank you for catching my oversight, It was a typo that should, and now does, read "Ephesians 2:3."

As I've pointed out before in other threads, what scholars have concluded was the wording in the original manuscripts is unimportant. What is important is what idea is transmitted by those who put together today's Bibles. At least four Bibles use the word "corrupt" in Eph 2:3, whereas others use, "passion," "desires," "cravings," and "lusts," among other terms. So it's really a crap shoot as to which best expresses the intention of the original writer. What these variations do provide are theological cherries to pick so as to flesh out ones theology as one sees fit. In one sense, Christianity is a true do-it-yourself religion. Don't like how the King James Bible translates the Hebrew ra in Isaiah 45:7 as "evil"? then you can pick the Amplified Bible that translates the word as "disaster," or the World English Bible that translates it as "calamity," or the New Life version that has watered down the meaning to just "trouble," or other Bibles that tell us god simply created "woe."

"Evil"
"Disaster"
"Calamity"
"trouble"
"Woe"
​

Hardly decent synonyms of one another. It's as if god really doesn't give a **** what his book says, or what his followers believe. So, the Bible having been redrafted and re-translated so many times and in so many different ways, what the original writers wrote is immaterial. And people don't read the original manuscripts.

.

The WORDS are irreverent, its the story that counts. What's the story

 

[Axe Elf]

The WORDS are irreverent, its the story that counts.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Skwim]

The WORDS are irreverent, its the story that counts. What's the story

"Irrelevant"? I don't know. I can't trust the words used to tell it.

.

 

[Trackdayguy]

This misapplication of Scripture and the author of your posted article just negated one of the main reasons Jesus came to Earth.

-- Romans 5:12..."Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin...."

-- 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If our sinful, i.e., imperfect, condition wasn't caused by Adam, then calling Jesus, "the Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians, has no meaning.

If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?

To be like children, means to be the opposite of arrogant; rather, humble and meek, willing to mold ourselves to be pleasing to God.

Im happy for you to believe what ever you want.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Have you any evidence that I am incorrect?
Let's be honest the Catholic Church admitted Purgatory was made up about 20-years ago.
Where in the Bible is original sin mentioned?
The Trinity - please explain how that works?

Its not possible to explain where original sin comes from in the Bible ITS NOT THERE, neither is the TRINITY. The saddest thing is how easy it is to dupe people. But the masses are all to happy to let someone tell them what to believe.

 

[savagewind]

Its not possible to explain where original sin comes from in the Bible ITS NOT THERE, neither is the TRINITY. The saddest thing is how easy it is to dupe people. But the masses are all to happy to let someone tell them what to believe.

I think that original sin just means something imperfect that we all share. We are all imperfect. Right?

 

[Trackdayguy]

I think that original sin just means something imperfect that we all share. We are all imperfect. Right?

We are for sure, but the Christian evangelical fundamentalist will tell us that Adam first sinned and as ancestors of Adam we are all born in sin. You have to admit you really gotta stretch your brain around making that work for you.

 

[savagewind]

We are for sure, but the Christian evangelical fundamentalist will tell us that Adam first sinned and as ancestors of Adam we are all born in sin. You gotta admit you really gotta stretch your brain around making that work for you.

True. Stretching of brains, I do not do.

 

[74x12]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE

Author: Jesus didn't believe in 'original sin' and neither should we - Religion News Service

Original sin as I believe it is not that you bear the guilt of Adam and Eve but rather you bear their nature from birth. So because they sinned, you also are prone to sinful ways from birth and it was not originally so. God made Adam and Eve without any sinful way. However now we are stuck with a nature that is prone to sinful ways. This is why Jesus came who remakes us over again into the image of God so we can be free from sin.

 

[Brickjectivity]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE

Author: Jesus didn't believe in 'original sin' and neither should we - Religion News Service

I took a look at the site mentioned and in particular Finney's "How to Win Souls" translated by William Allen. Some comments in there seemed particularly poignant for our time: "... What do you suppose these ungodly politicians who know themselves to be playing a dishonest game, in carrying an election, think of your religion, when they see you uniting with them? They know that you are a hypocrite."

I am not saying that I agree with him on every point on the site. Also he may not believe in 'Original sin' but still believes that people are sinful and lost until they are converted, which seems like much the same thing to me. He has a section on "How to approach the unsaved." How is this extremely different from Original Sin?

He's an interesting writer who ought to be more well known among lay Christians as he seems to have lots of ideas. His writing seems complex and not fully mature, but he's much better than many modern writers who dither and pull facts from all over while mixing in superstitions and leave readers more confused than when they start.