Original sin

[gnostic]

Give me a verse in the bible that says there is original sin.

I don't recall original sin being mentioned in the bible, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere in one of Paul's letters (sorry, I don't remember where), which may have contribute to the "original sin". I think it was Paul making comparison between Adam and Jesus. I think it had something to do with Adam's sin have caused death.

Jesus certainly didn't teach it. Jesus make no mention of Adam or his sins. The only mention of Adam that I recall is in Jesus' genealogy.

But I am not certain with this, because I have not read any of Paul's letters in a long while. Although, I do think some of his teachings have some merits, but I remember disagreeing more than I agree....and I simply dislike this so-called apostle. I believe that some of his teachings became responsible for the current troubles in Christianity.

 

[Evandr]

Not "must" but rather "should be". Why deny Christ saving grace to a child? The sacrament of baptism really does make you a Christian by entering you into communion with Christ, washing away your sins, uniting your nature to his so as to become Trinified, sanctified, and justified, and infuses your soul with life giving grace. The Sacrament applies the work of Christ on the Cross to the individual personally via baptism. It is the greatest gift one could ever give. Why on earth would I hold that back from my infant child?

An interesting and very caring philosophy, I can certainly see where you would wish to include children a communion with the Lord through baptism but it is wholly unnecessary, they are already covered by the grace of God and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ before they reach the age of accountability.

It is also interesting that in your comment you included in your reasons for baptism phrases like “remission of sins” which a child has no need of and “entering you into communion with Christ” which a child has not the mental capacity to do “uniting your nature to his so as to become Trinified” which is to say that our Heavenly Father is not really our Father until after baptism. (so much for those poor souls never afforded the ordinance of baptism, I guess they will just have to go to Hell) I could go on but I am getting off track.

Baptism is an ordinance for the remission of sins. Children are born into the world sinless and therefore need no baptism. It is not until they have the mental capacity to understand right from wrong and then choose for themselves the path they will take before they can be subject to the demands of justice.

I think attempting to baptize a child incapable of sin is an affront to God. I can just hear it now, the Lord asking someone preaching infant baptism "is this the type of father you think I am? Do you really think I would deny my saving grace to a sinless child?” The Lord’s indignation and wrath toward someone who would preach such an abomination would be completely justifiable.

When Christ was born into the world he demonstrated extraordinary wisdom and gospel knowledge at a very young age but did not seek baptism until later in life. If infant baptism was the best course of action why was not John the Baptist prepared to recognize and then baptize the Christ child shortly after Christ was born?

Jesus Christ never sinned so when John the Baptist asked Christ why he wanted to be baptized it indicated that he (john) understood that a sinless person needs no baptism. Christ’s response was to proceed to fulfill all righteousness thusly not leaving an excuse for others to avoid baptism by claiming they lived a life void of sin.

Your philosophy provides a cute and warm fuzzy to the soul but denies the perfect love and justice of god and undermines the mission of Jesus Christ.

 

[Quiddity]

An interesting and very caring philosophy, I can certainly see where you would wish to include children a communion with the Lord through baptism but it is wholly unnecessary, they are already covered by the grace of God and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ before they reach the age of accountability.

It is also interesting that in your comment you included in your reasons for baptism phrases like “remission of sins” which a child has no need of and “entering you into communion with Christ” which a child has not the mental capacity to do “uniting your nature to his so as to become Trinified” which is to say that our Heavenly Father is not really our Father until after baptism. (so much for those poor souls never afforded the ordinance of baptism, I guess they will just have to go to Hell) I could go on but I am getting off track.

Baptism is an ordinance for the remission of sins. Children are born into the world sinless and therefore need no baptism. It is not until they have the mental capacity to understand right from wrong and then choose for themselves the path they will take before they can be subject to the demands of justice.

I think attempting to baptize a child incapable of sin is an affront to God. I can just hear it now, the Lord asking someone preaching infant baptism "is this the type of father you think I am? Do you really think I would deny my saving grace to a sinless child?” The Lord’s indignation and wrath toward someone who would preach such an abomination would be completely justifiable.

When Christ was born into the world he demonstrated extraordinary wisdom and gospel knowledge at a very young age but did not seek baptism until later in life. If infant baptism was the best course of action why was not John the Baptist prepared to recognize and then baptize the Christ child shortly after Christ was born?

Jesus Christ never sinned so when John the Baptist asked Christ why he wanted to be baptized it indicated that he (john) understood that a sinless person needs no baptism. Christ’s response was to proceed to fulfill all righteousness thusly not leaving an excuse for others to avoid baptism by claiming they lived a life void of sin.

Your philosophy provides a cute and warm fuzzy to the soul but denies the perfect love and justice of god and undermines the mission of Jesus Christ.

Your observation has already been addressed. It just takes a bit of finger work to scroll and click back some pages.

 

[Katzpur]

As long as you believe the fall inclined the human race to sin it doesn't matter that it's not in scripture.

That's only the case if being "inclined to sin" means the same thing as "sinning." You can be inclined to do something and not succumb to your inclination. In that case, you haven't sinned, have you? If you haven't sinned, what is there to be forgiven of?

 

[Quiddity]

That's only the case if being "inclined to sin" means the same thing as "sinning." You can be inclined to do something and not succumb to your inclination. In that case, you haven't sinned, have you? If you haven't sinned, what is there to be forgiven of?

And for the unpteenth time it's not talking about personal sin but only the inclination. I don't know how much clearer I can make it...

 

[Katzpur]

And for the unpteenth time it's not talking about personal sin but only the inclination. I don't know how much clearer I can make it...

:sorry1:, Victor, I guess I'm just kind of dense. Please don't get frustrated with me! Just explain one more time why we need to be forgiven for our inclination to sin. I am not trying to be difficult here.

 

[Quiddity]

:sorry1:, Victor, I guess I'm just kind of dense. Please don't get frustrated with me! Just explain one more time why we need to be forgiven for our inclination to sin. I am not trying to be difficult here.

Because it's what got corrupted at the fall and was inherited via spiritually to all mankind. Otherwise, what was the point in Christ dying for our sins?

 

[Katzpur]

Because it's what got corrupted at the fall and was inherited via spiritually to all mankind. Otherwise, what was the point in Christ dieing for our sins?

The point in Christ dying for our sins was just that -- making it possible for us to be forgiven of sins we actually commit. If Christ died for Adam's sins, too, why would God hold us responsible for them? When I say that I believe we inherited Adam's propensity to sin, I mean only that as mortals, we are subject to temptation, and don't always have the will-power to resist. Being predisposed to sin is not itself a sin; it's just part of the human condition that we have as descendents of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ paid for Adam's sins and will not hold us accountable for them.

 

[Quiddity]

The point in Christ dying for our sins was just that -- making it possible for us to be forgiven of sins we actually commit. If Christ died for Adam's sins, too, why would God hold us responsible for them? When I say that I believe we inherited Adam's propensity to sin, I mean only that as mortals, we are subject to temptation, and don't always have the will-power to resist. Being predisposed to sin is not itself a sin; it's just part of the human condition that we have as descendents of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ paid for Adam's sins and will not hold us accountable for them.

I never said he's holding us accountable for someone else's sins. Not Adam's, not anybody's. What I'm saying is that Adam and Eve damaged the human condition and that it must be repaired.

ROMANS 5:12-21 (NIV) -- Therefore, just as SIN entered the world THROUGH ONE MAN [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED [Latin Vulgate reads -in quo omnes peccaverunt-] (verse 12) [translated: "IN WHOM all have sinned"] ...Consequently, just as the result of ONE TRESPASS was condemnation for ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the ONE MAN [Adam] the many [all] were MADE SINNERS, so also through the obedience of the one man [Christ] the many [all] will be made righteous. (verses 18-19)

It's pretty obvious it had implications on us all.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Adam and Eve were created with the propensity to sin?

Also, what do you think of this:
PSALMS 51 and 58 -- Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (51:5 NIV); Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (51:5 RSV); Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (58:3 NIV); The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. (58:3 RSV)

 

[athanasius]

The point in Christ dying for our sins was just that -- making it possible for us to be forgiven of sins we actually commit. If Christ died for Adam's sins, too, why would God hold us responsible for them? When I say that I believe we inherited Adam's propensity to sin, I mean only that as mortals, we are subject to temptation, and don't always have the will-power to resist. Being predisposed to sin is not itself a sin; it's just part of the human condition that we have as descendents of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ paid for Adam's sins and will not hold us accountable for them.

But he does! That is why we die. We inherited that from our Parents first sin as a temporal punishment(Gen 3:19). Perhaps Mormons and Catholic just play words games when it come to this concept. What you describe(Propensity to sin) we would call Concupiscence. A deficiency inherited by Adams and Eves sin. Romans 5 is one way we look at this original sin. Romans 6 is how we look at ways to counter it, baptism.

 

[athanasius]

I never said he's holding us accountable for someone else's sins. Not Adam's, not anybody's. What I'm saying is that Adam and Eve damaged the human condition and that it must be repaired.

ROMANS 5:12-21 (NIV) -- Therefore, just as SIN entered the world THROUGH ONE MAN [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED [Latin Vulgate reads -in quo omnes peccaverunt-] (verse 12) [translated: "IN WHOM all have sinned"] ...Consequently, just as the result of ONE TRESPASS was condemnation for ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the ONE MAN [Adam] the many [all] were MADE SINNERS, so also through the obedience of the one man [Christ] the many [all] will be made righteous. (verses 18-19)

It's pretty obvious it had implications on us all.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Adam and Eve were created with the propensity to sin?

Also, what do you think of this:
PSALMS 51 and 58 -- Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (51:5 NIV); Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (51:5 RSV); Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (58:3 NIV); The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. (58:3 RSV)

Excellent quotes!

 

[Katzpur]

I never said he's holding us accountable for someone else's sins. Not Adam's, not anybody's. What I'm saying is that Adam and Eve damaged the human condition and that it must be repaired.

Okay, are you saying that the human condition is repaired through the baptism of each individual? I would say that the human condition was repaired through Christ's Atonement, and that our sins are repaired through His Atonement, our faith in Him, our baptism, and our continued repentance.

It's pretty obvious it had implications on us all.

I would agree with that.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Adam and Eve were created with the propensity to sin?

No, I believe they were created pure and clean and did not have the propensity to sin until after the Fall. I don't think this quality was part of their immortal state (the state in which they existed while in Eden) but came to be a part of who they were when they disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thereby gaining understanding. I think that children are born in that same pure state, and that their propensity to sin comes as they become aware of the difference between good and evil.

Also, what do you think of this:

PSALMS 51 and 58 -- Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (51:5 NIV); Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (51:5 RSV); Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (58:3 NIV); The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. (58:3 RSV)

Since I am more comfortable with the KJV, I hope you won't mind if I comment on it instead. Psalm 51:5 says, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." To me, that indicates that we were born to mortal parents who, as sinners, pass this mortal trait along to us. Psalm 58:3 states, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Since I'm sure we can agree that newborn babies don't speak at all, it would be quite a stretch to literally accuse them of lying.

The Book of Mormon teaches much the same thing, actually. In Mosiah 3:19, we read, "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

We believe that, if left to his own devices, men will be wicked. We don't believe they were born wicked, though, and so we understand those verses in Psalms to be referring to a child's inborn inclination to grow up to be sinful.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Ezekiel 18 speaks of personal responsibility for the punishment of sin.
Adam and Eve, being the first parents, made a particularly wide-ranging bad decision. It's not about sin and punishment, but about natural consequences for behavior.

What makes you think it was such a bad decision Francine? From my perspective Adam and Eve were living in a state of innocence in the Garden of Eden. By partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they gained wisdom that they never otherwise would have acquired. Becoming mortal meant they would experience pain yes, but also joy. They came to understand the difference between good and evil. I guess you could say they introduced sin into the world, but perhaps their choice had many benefits as well. If not for the fall of Adam and Eve we never would have needed the atonement of the Savior, right? It just seems to me it was all part of the master plan.

I definitely agree that all of us are responsible for our own choices, and not for the choices of Adam and Eve.

 

[Francine]

What makes you think it was such a bad decision Francine?

Look at the immediate consequences: they hid from their own Creator, their God who used to love to come speak to them in the cool of the evening. By disobeying God, they ripped apart the close relationship they had with him. And that estrangement was naturally passed down to all of us.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I agree there was a consequence to their action, and that part of that consequence was a spiritual death (separation from God). I just think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. I'm new on here but I noticed you posted a question from Alma sometime ago. Wow! Now try reading 2 Nephi 2:22-25.

 

[Francine]

I agree there was a consequence to their action, and that part of that consequence was a spiritual death (separation from God). I just think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. I'm new on here but I noticed you posted a question from Alma sometime ago. Wow! Now try reading 2 Nephi 2:22-25.

Thank you! Now back up one verse to #21:

For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

That's everything I wanted to say, only better!

 

[TrueBlue2]

Yes! They broke a law. Because of them death was introduced into the world. They had to suffer a consequence for their "sin". I'm just suggesting that it was part of a bigger plan - an introduction to the plan of salvation, as it were. Adam introduces sin, death, and mortality as part of the reason for us coming to earth, then Christ redeems us from the consequences of sin, overcomes death, and gives man immortality.

Great thoughts Francine. What's a catholic doing reading the BofM?

I'm having a hard time getting my profile picture to work. Any ideas?

 

[Francine]

I'm just suggesting that it was part of a bigger plan - an introduction to the plan of salvation, as it were.

There have been identical sentiments among Catholics. Felix culpa. "Oh, happy fault! Oh, necessary sin of Adam! That won for us so great a salvation!""

Great thoughts Francine. What's a catholic doing reading the BofM?

Some untidy missionaries left it in my quad.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I'm glad you're open minded enough to read it.:yes:

 

[Francine]

I'm glad you're open minded enough to read it.:yes:

But not so open-minded that my brains fall out on the floor. I have refused to engage the missionaries on any revelations following the death of Moroni (the one who buried the plates, not the one who pointed them out to J. Smith).