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Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
use_your_brain said:
if not by the God then who created them?
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Nobody created anything.

Our space and universe formed from a singularity. The universe is chocked full of small singularities.

We don't need to attribute mythology to a natural event.

Next we look at he religious creation mythology. None of it happened as written. There is nothing in nature in any part we can attribute to a god.
 
use_your_brain

use_your_brain

Active Member
outhouse said:
Nobody created anything.

Our space and universe formed from a singularity. The universe is chocked full of small singularities.

We don't need to attribute mythology to a natural event.

Next we look at he religious creation mythology. None of it happened as written. There is nothing in nature in any part we can attribute to a god.
Click to expand...
do you mean universe created by it own self?
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Augustus said:
Do you admit that this is highly speculative and lacking in any real evidence though?
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Close. But that is the same for research into Jesus. Its not really highly speculative, as much as determining plausibility. Its not a certainty.

There is evidence but it is weak. And sometimes that is the best we can run with.

Augustus said:
What about Waraqa in the tradition doesn't serve a theological purpose?
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There is a mixture here.

Its not one way or the other.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
outhouse said:
There is evidence but it is weak
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Very weak.

How do you reach your conclusion about it being almost certain and 'obvious' then?

You still haven't answered why you think that such trivialities about Waraqa are correct, but very significant things appear to have been forgotten. What was forgotten was later filled in with (often demonstrably incorrect) stories. Why assume Waraqa isn't one of these fill ins?
 
R

Ralphg

Member
I just read about Waraka for the first time in my live and still have goosebumps.
When I was young (about 5 years old) one day I also found myself wandering around the streets. In my case I didn't really know what to do but a 'voice' told me that I had to go inside a house in order to 'stay alive'. I was meant to be 'homeless' and had to find a 'home'. For 'messengers' like Muhammad and me (see my profile page) this 'adventure' is meant to clearify to 'origin and/or goal' of (or to) the 'messenger'. Since during Muhammad's 'adventure' the man saying "One, One" is the central focuspoint this means Muhammad's 'origin and/or goal' His 'autorithy' comes from 'One' (the singularity) and his 'mission' is 'One' which, to be honest, could mean several things here but turned out to be receiving a new 'Book' (the Qu'ran).
Obviously I have a different 'origin and/or goal' > I have to 'find a home' which makes perfect sense in a symbolic way if you look at the 'mission' I'm involved in (also see my profile page). During my 'adventure' I haven't heard any numbers like "One,One" but during my lifetime I have had always had strong feelings about the number combination "1=2" which can symbolicly be seen as 1 is the singularity and looking at the entire number combination and considering my 'mission' is to 'help' mankind into space 1=2 could mean something like: Someone is looking to become 'greater' so 'mankind' wants to 'expand' (into space in this case).
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Augustus said:
You still haven't answered why you think that such trivialities about Waraqa are correct
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Traditions often develop around historical events.

Like John there was no real reason to remove him, and they built muhammads history around the life he lived, and Waraka was part of that.


Part of the anthropology of these people is also a community style of living.

Someone had to be the communities teacher Muhammad was part of, so its natural to look at who the traditions show had the most biblical knowledge and would have been the closest to him geographically speaking. But most of all who could have had the most influence and or contact with that community.
 
R

Ralphg

Member
The communitiy a 'messenger' is in is especially set up for the 'messenger' so He can make a cognitive decision about His 'mission' > that is > does He think it is 'neccesary' to make use of His 'special powers' or not. In Muhammad's case it's obvious Waraqa is put there in Muhammad's 'community' to teach Him about Judaism and Christianity. It was up to Muhammad to decide if He 'wanted' to receive His 'book' or let the 2 monotheistic known religion go on without the third (Islam).

- In my case it was the 1986 Challenger disaster which happened to 'show' me more about my 'mission'. 1986 was a time of many 'raptures' for me.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
outhouse said:
I stated
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You have stated that it was 'obvious' and pretty certain. Plausible is also very different from probable.

outhouse said:
Traditions often develop around historical events.
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Doesn't mean they are accurate though.

outhouse said:
Someone had to be the communities teacher Muhammad was part of, so its natural to look at who the traditions show had the most biblical knowledge and would have been the closest to him geographically speaking. But most of all who could have had the most influence and or contact with that community.
Click to expand...

You are back to circular reasoning again. You assume that what is convenient is true, and what is inconvenient is false. That the tradition is accurate enough to support your thesis but not accurate enough to reject it. You also don't seem to have incorporated the idea that the Quran's audience must have been familiar with much of the Abrahamic tradition beforehand.

You still haven't answered about why tiny details about Waraqa were remembered but things like 'the year of the elephant' and the Sabeans were forgotten/filled in.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Augustus said:
You have stated that it was 'obvious' and pretty certain
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I can still stand behind that. Someone had to teach that community. And Waraka pops out above the rest

There is a difference between a certainty and pretty certain.

And its pretty obvious, he did not pick this up in a cave.

Augustus said:
You also don't seem to have incorporated the idea that the Quran's audience must have been familiar with much of the Abrahamic tradition beforehand.
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I'm not worried about who he sold it to.

Its a given the Abrahamic traditions were not kept in a closet, when the prophets own family member was a priest
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
outhouse said:
I can still stand behind that. Someone had to teach that community. And Waraka pops out above the rest

There is a difference between a certainty and pretty certain.

And its pretty obvious, he did not pick this up in a cave

I'm not worried about who he sold it to.

Its a given the Abrahamic traditions were not kept in a closet, when the prophets own family member was a priest
Click to expand...

Back to circular reasoning.

You should be interested in the audience also as it is of key importance.

Why do you think that it is reasonable to express that you are pretty certain without having read any critical scholarship on the issue? Don't you think gaining knowledge is essential to understanding?

If you have read any scholarship, what have you read?

(I noticed you avoided my question again too)
 
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