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Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

Shad

Veteran Member
I cant find that plausible. To much material and to many details for one man. Just like the gospel authors this was a community effort IMHO

I didn't mean to suggest every single part of it was learned. Just that parts of it could have been. Just as some parts are in direct reference to the people around him such as some of the laws. The verses about marriage for example are not linked with previous texts.

That's not how people communicated back then. Everything was an oral tradition for the most part.

Sure. However you shouldn't discount that Muhammad's poverty was a construct. The biographies covering his life show that he was not some average commoner, if any are to be believed. Consider the claims that he acted as a representative for his first wife's merchant caravans.
 
Sort of implies a teacher to some extent.

This is because you are working within the assumption that the Islamic tradition broadly reflects actual history.

I have given you 30+ links to credible scholarship that open up a whole range of possibilities that you are currently unaware of.

In fact, you dismissed them without reading them and remarked:

None of which says anything of value.

And then went back to peddling this:

Waraka does have historicity as a heretic priest writing perverted Christian text in Arabic who had a life long relationship with his cousin muhammad.

It is not certain he taught muhammad, but the obvious is pretty obvious despite it not being certain.

As I have mentioned, he could just as easily be there to serve a theological purpose: a learned, non-trinitarian 'Abrahamic' who recognised Muhammed's gift of prophecy.

In post 18 I discussed the '4 hanifs' from tradition, of whom Waraqa is one. I pointed out about how their stories seem to suggest that a lot of significant information is missing from the tradition which should have a major impact on your way of thinking.

The idea that much knowledge of this period was forgotten/lost is very important.

The questions of the Sitz im Leben of the Quran and what happened in the period after Muhammed are much more important than looking for a 'smoking gun' that can be used in 2 sentence long polemics

What our other friend refuses to do is look at who these teachers might have been, and offered we don't know as his best explanation.

Assuming this means me, what I refuse to do is be trapped within a narrow paradigm that doesn't appear to be supported by a more systematic analysis of the available evidence and is far less interesting or relevant than the issues that scholars actually focus on.

You are looking at a specific named individual as a sort of 'smoking gun'. The problems with this are 1) lack of meaningful evidence for a scholar to be able to see it as anything other than speculative 2) an assumption that the Islamic tradition is broadly correct, an assumption which few scholars make.

I just find having a heretic in walking distance of a 5 year old, very strong things the ancient historians recorded who were biased.

You are assuming that Waraqa meets the criteria of embarrassment, a big assumption.

You also need to realise the extent that medieval theologians didn't seem to understand much of the material and engaged in post hoc speculations and exegeses that often appear to miss the point.

And when we look at the very limited history on this, one figure more then any other is standing out.

When we look at the substantial body of scholarship, the importance of one figure of dubious historicity is far less than it is to you. I have provided at least 5 sources that comment on this, none of them particularly positively 'poorly documented', 'circular reasoning', etc.

Seriously, why don't you actually read a few of my articles? It is fair to say that you are not well read on this subject, that's not an insult just the truth. There's no shame in it, although I find it strange that despite your apparent interest in the topic and willingness to invest your time in discussing it, you seem strangely resistant to actually trying to learn anything scholarly about it and even display an overt hostility to critical scholarship that I post.

The true history of the koran is that Arabic people wanted to change the biblical text because they did not believe in all the rhetorical text as written. The contradictions and rhetoric is pretty obvious, and not starting with a strong orthodox faith, and living in a place where no one really cared off the beaten path so to speak.

It was easy to create new text based on previous traditions

This favours Islamic theology over academic history again.

The idea of Arabia as being 'off the beaten path' is a misnomer. This was the borderlands between 2 superpowers and of great strategic interest. Much of the defence of the Roman and Persian Empires had also been outsourced to powerful Christian Arab tribes. That Arabs didn't have a strong faith isn't supported by religious conflicts in the 6th C between Christian Axum and Jewish Himyar.

If we make the assumption that religions reflect the environment in which the evolved, then this appears to be an environment very much aware of contemporary religious issues and a strong attitude towards them.

What was the Sitz im Leben of the Quran? What was the influence of Syriac religious beliefs? What was the nature of the Arab conquests? The first fitnah also seems to be a 'civil war' between Hijazi and Syrian Arab factions, the significance of this is also of great interest as is the question of how much the Islam of the 8th C reflected the (proto)Islam of the 7th C.

These are just some of the questions that Islamicists are interested in. They also offer a lot more potential for discovery and genuine scholarship than Waraqa.

Your purpose seems to be to attack and discredit Muhammed rather than to engage in genuine historical enquiry. This is not the purpose of academic history though which is why you won't find what you are looking for in scholarly journals. If you take a step back from this perspective and start thinking about what, given the evidence, scholars can possibly work out it becomes a far more interesting subject.
 

Ralphg

Member
The Orthodox Islamic belief is that Muhammed received the Quran as the literal word of God via the Angel Gabriel over a period of many years in Mecca and Medina.
As a hands-on expert I'm pretty sure Muhammed received the text of the Quran during the meeting in the cave of Hira all at once. The assumption he received it over a period of many years is false imo. Muhammed might have had more meetings with Gabriel but he already was 'inprinted' with the entire 'book' at that time.
 

use_your_brain

Active Member
As a hands-on expert I'm pretty sure Muhammed received the text of the Quran during the meeting in the cave of Hira all at once. The assumption he received it over a period of many years is false imo. Muhammed might have had more meetings with Gabriel but he already was 'inprinted' with the entire 'book' at that time.
what about this verse, for instance, did he receive it in cave of Hira also?
"And to the three (persons) also (did He turn in mercy) who were left behind, when the earth, vast as it is, become straitened for them, and their own souls were straitened for them till they bethought them that there is no refuge from Allah save toward Him." (Quran 9: 118)
It talks about three persons who left behind from participating in the war Tabuk, in the year of 9 H (9 years after prophet moved to Madinah).
 

Ralphg

Member
what about this verse, for instance, did he receive it in cave of Hira also?
"And to the three (persons) also (did He turn in mercy) who were left behind, when the earth, vast as it is, become straitened for them, and their own souls were straitened for them till they bethought them that there is no refuge from Allah save toward Him." (Quran 9: 118)
It talks about three persons who left behind from participating in the war Tabuk, in the year of 9 H (9 years after prophet moved to Madinah).
I've read the entire Soera in my own language here: http://koran.nl/soera-9-at-taubah-het-berouw/
but I can't find anything about the fact (as you mention) that the three (it does not say 3 persons, just 3, imo that could also mean it talks about a symbolic reference to some kind of 'Trinity') participated in the war Tabuk. Can you help me find that?
 

use_your_brain

Active Member
I've read the entire Soera in my own language here: http://koran.nl/soera-9-at-taubah-het-berouw/
but I can't find anything about the fact (as you mention) that the three (it does not say 3 persons, just 3, imo that could also mean it talks about a symbolic reference to some kind of 'Trinity') participated in the war Tabuk. Can you help me find that?
it says: ٱلثَّلَـٰثَةِ ٱلَّذِينَ (tsalatsatil laziina..)= 3 persons.
ٱلَّذِينَ (laziina) = person
 

Ralphg

Member
Oh, that doesn't say it in the translation. Then I guess you are probably right....
....Muhammad and Gabriel must have had several meetings in order to be able to fullfill Allah's command.......:smirk:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
How could a family member within walking distance of a small child teaching Arabic heretical bible, and later being the very first person to claim he had divine contact, not be an influence to a man also taught a heretical version of the bible in Arabic?
 
How could a family member within walking distance of a small child teaching Arabic heretical bible, and later being the very first person to claim he had divine contact, not be an influence to a man also taught a heretical version of the bible in Arabic?

It's like discussing the origins of the world with a YE creationist. The flaws with your argument have been pointed out ad nauseum - while it is plausible (i.e theoretically possible) it just lacks any sort of meaningful evidence that would move it from speculation to academic history.

Are you genuinely interested in this area of history or do you just want a nice easy jibe to throw at Muslims that makes it seem like you have researched the topic?

Some questions:

1) Why don't scholars have the same interest/confidence as you in the Waraqa theory?
2) Why do you assume minor details about Muhammed's childhood have been correctly remembered, when major things such as how to interpret certain teachings have been forgotten?
3) Why do you operate within the boundaries of Islamic theology rather than academic history?
4) Why do you feel that it is not necessary to have read anything academic on the subject before being able to discuss it with such a high degree of confidence?
5) Why do you reject all areas of modern scholarship as having 'no value'?
6) When you lectured at college, did you tell your students to jump to conclusions based on a superficial reading of wikipedia and ignore all genuine scholarship on the topic if it doesn't match their polemical agenda?

*cue repetition of same tired point, this time with bold, CAPS, and added :rolleyes::facepalm:*
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Your welcome to change the wiki page that shows Waraka has historicity.

But your not arguing against me

Your still arguing against the encyclopedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waraka_ibn_Nawfal

Waraka and Khadija were also the first cousins twice removed of Muhammad

Waraka was a family member of Muhammad


He studied the Bible under Jews and Christians[3] and read an Arabic translation of the New Testament.[4] He also "wrote the New Testament in Arabic,"

It is said that in 576 Waraka found a lost five-year-old boy wandering around Upper Mecca. This was Muhammad
 
Many do.

You posted them.

Other you posted say "we do not know"

So the best source you have to support your argument that you have expressed as being almost certain, 'obvious' and worthy of :rolleyes::facepalm:ing anyone who disagrees with you is an article you haven't read that calls the theory 'highly speculative and poorly documented'?

The best source you have is one that mentions Waraqa as a not particularly major point and also disagrees with you?

Is this correct?

Your welcome to change the wiki page that shows Waraka has historicity.

But your not arguing against me

Your still arguing against the encyclopedia.

We'll arguing against you is the same as arguing against Wikipedia because it is your only source of information (unlike you though, Wikipedia updates its views based on new evidence).

I'll happily argue against what is in Wikipedia from the basis of academic history though seeing as the sources of it's information are Islamic theology (Bukhara, ibn Ishaq, etc).

Before you confused critical history for apologetics and now you are confusing theology for critical history.

Why do you favour theology over history and express anti-academic sentiments, yet profess to love academia and claim have worked a tertiary level educator? Is this just a rhetorical strategy to boost your online ethos? I find it hard to believe you have the slightest interest in this subject beyond engaging in anti-Islam polemics.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'll happily argue against what is in Wikipedia from the basis of academic history

Your cherry picking again.

We do not throw away all evidence, we study it. Your in no position to discredit wiki.

You are welcome to go to the wiki page and argue there however, and see if you can change the definition if you have credible sources to back up your claims
 
Your cherry picking again.

We do not throw away all evidence, we study it. Your in no position to discredit wiki.

You are welcome to go to the wiki page and argue there however, and see if you can change the definition if you have credible sources to back up your claims

'Cherry picking' is one of your go to responses when you don't really have a clue about what you are talking about. The ironic thing is that you are undertaking in the very definition of cherry picking. You just assume that whatever suits you must be correct, just because it is convenient.

Why do believe that the tradition remembers what happened to Muhammed when he was 5, but makes errors about Mecca being attacked by Abra in the year of his birth and can't really remember who the Sabeans mentioned in the Quran are?

Go to the articles I linked to, there is a section on hadith. There are several articles there which will explain to you why you are wrong to be credulous as regards such information. Why do you claim to love academia, but prefer wikipedia to actual scholarship? I don't discredit wikipedia, the academic sources discredit it.

I don't reject all of the tradition, but am sceptical towards it. You are very credulous, but under the impression that you are being critical. You don't study evidence, that's the problem. You take it as gospel that wikipedia is both objectively correct and the most substantial source of academic knowledge that exists for every issue, everywhere.

The article explains what the Islamic tradition says. It is in no way the critical academic history that you pretend to love and pretend to have taught at a tertiary level. You love the word 'credible', but seem to hate credible academic scholarship.
 
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