Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

[muhammad_isa]

They lack an education is the field that matters.

Oh .. the opinions of a few historians is the only education that matters, is it?
..and what if they happen to be wrong? They are only making an 'educated guess' ..

Their opinions as non-experts is irrelevant

Irrelevant to what? I doubt whether the top Muslim historians question the existence of Moses .. but then of course, you probably allege that they are biased.

No . YOUR argument is fallacious. Muslims are not all imbeciles just because they don't agree with a few atheist historians!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Academia also does not say Judaism plagiarized the Mesopotamian flood mythology

Academia doesn't "say" anything. You misuse the word.
Perhaps you mean that "a bunch of atheists" say
Is it not possible for those who believe in Almighty God to be academics? [rhetorical question]

 

[outhouse]

Is it not possible for those who believe in Almighty God to be academics?

No.

There is no evidence at all to observe. Its mythology by all credible accounts.

Academia doesn't "say" anything.

What do you actually know in historical academics?

The Genesis flood narrative has similarities to ancient flood stories told worldwide. One of the closest parallels is the Mesopotamian myth of a world flood, recorded in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Perhaps you mean that "a bunch of atheists" say

Perhaps you mean to say, that you have faith, and that you don't understand what academics are

 

[muhammad_isa]

Is it not possible for those who believe in Almighty God to be academics?

No.

That says it all!

 

[outhouse]

That says it all!

So your going to twist context? theist can study and follow and accept academia. They cannot be academics

Many theist follow credible academics

 

[Augustus]

So your going to twist context? theist can study and follow and accept academia. They cannot be academics

There is a hell of a lot of competition but this might be the least informed post you have ever made. Hats off to you sir

It's spectacularly wrong.

 

[outhouse]

There is a hell of a lot of competition but this might be the least informed post you have ever made. Hats off to you sir

It's spectacularly wrong.

Moving goal post I see.

They can be academic NOT academics

And its nice you jump in our replies. I actually respect him because he is friendly with me, despite our differences. He is one of the few muslims I don't have on ignore.


We may not agree, but he is civil.

 

[Augustus]

Moving goal post I see.

They can be academic NOT academics

That makes no sense.

Plenty of theists, both now and historically, have been academics.

And its nice you jump in our replies. I actually respect him because he is friendly with me, despite our differences. He is one of the few muslims I don't have on ignore.


We may not agree, but he is civil.

Cry me a river.

You are hardly Mr etiquette

If you want people to be civil to you then stop replying to every reasonable post with facepalms, caps, bolds, large fonts, and the word factually used to present your misinformed opinion, and engage in reasonable discussion instead

 

[outhouse]

Plenty of theists, both now and historically, have been academics.

I like the actual definition.

academics, the scholarly activities of a school or university, as classroom studies or research projects:

 

[Augustus]

I like the actual definition.

academics, the scholarly activities of a school or university, as classroom studies or research projects:

Or, in the context it was being used: a teacher or scholar at a university (many of whom are theists)

 

[Shad]

Oh .. the opinions of a few historians is the only education that matters, is it?

No it is supported by consensus of experts. Archaeologists not historians, most historian are not archaeologists

..and what if they happen to be wrong? They are only making an 'educated guess' ..

Reasonable conclusion. Show they are wrong. I have no need to speculated over a hypothetical position you make up in your mind merely as a dodge.

Irrelevant to what? I doubt whether the top Muslim historians question the existence of Moses .. but then of course, you probably allege that they are biased.

They are not archaeologists, their views are based on outdated information and a lack of knowledge in the relevant field

No . YOUR argument is fallacious.

No it isn't. The opinion of Muslims that are not experts in the relevant field is both an ad populum fallacy and argument from authority

Muslims are not all imbeciles just because they don't agree with a few atheist historians!

Didn't say that. I am sure many are great doctors, mechanics, engineers, etc. However when it comes to the relevant field unless an expert. However you can easily reference the Egyptian Antiquity Authority to see Muslims that are archaeologists agree with the conclusion I have mentioned.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..However when it comes to the relevant field unless an expert. However you can easily reference the Egyptian Antiquity Authority to see Muslims that are archaeologists agree with the conclusion I have mentioned.

wonderful
..but whatever the archaeologists have found CANNOT prove that Moses, peace be with him, did not exist.

 

[Shad]

Actually he provided one source that stated such using another word, which it labeled the same.

Yet they didn't make the same conclusion regarding plagiarism as you have.

Academia also does not say Judaism plagiarized the Mesopotamian flood mythology, LIKE this, they use other words meaning the same thing.

Perhaps they know better than to use anachronisms and that the environment shows that such a claim is flawed

No scholar doubts the influence of Mesopotamian mythology on Israelite text.

Yet when scholars use the same principle of influence you not only deny this you do the opposite per above and claim plagiarism

All one has to do is take previous ideas and rewrite them as their own, and that is plagiarizing.

Deny the principle you put forward previously

Non sequitur

Not it wasn't since you presented a false dichotomy. It only take issues since I exposed it as such and presented a view you rejected and omitted.

They, who ever they are, took previous traditions and rewrote them as the true divine tradition.

Again this can be resolved with the belief in authorship. Belief in authorship by God of the Bible while restating such verses from the Bible in the Quran.

Your simply moving goal post, and the sad thing is the post are still in the field of Plagiarism.

Nope. I challenged your view with another view, no more

No I have not. Nothing has been posted by any scholar that goes against my general opinion here.

Considering they do not make the claim you do and include the idea of belief in authorship and influence, which you support then deny, you are incorrect.

Most of them said we cannot know. We no kidding, its the same for historical Jesus research.

Yet this same reference are about specific which can lead to a reasonable conclusion.

In case you did not know 20 different scholars can have 20 different opinion on Jesus, and all be credible.

Directly opposing views can not both be credible within the same scope.

Have a nice day.

/s

 

[Shad]

wonderful
..but whatever the archaeologists have found CANNOT prove that Moses, peace be with him, did not exist.

Argument from ignorance.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Argument from ignorance.

I have noticed how many atheists use 'stock phrases' to critisise other people's posts..
,,such as 'argumentum populum' or 'non-sequitor' and so on

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't add any new knowledge to the debate .. it makes me feel that they just wish to show how smart they are .. they aren't really interested.

 

[Shad]

I have noticed how many atheists use 'stock phrases' to critisise other people's posts..

It is not a phrase its a fallacy name. You used it.

http://philosophy.lander.edu/scireas/ignorance.html

You put forward Moses is real because his existence has not been proven false

,,such as 'argumentum populum' or 'non-sequitor' and so on

Take a few courses on logic and philosophy.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't add any new knowledge to the debate .. it makes me feel that they just wish to show how smart they are .. they aren't really interested.

Irrelevant as you use fallacious reasoning for your conclusion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You put forward Moses is real because his existence has not been proven false

No I didn't .. I said that an archaeologist cannot deduce that he DOESN'T exist..
That means that Moses might or might not exist!

Take a few courses on logic and philosophy.

Take a few courses on reading what is written

 

[outhouse]

I said that an archaeologist cannot deduce that he DOESN'T exist..

They can and have.

Evidence found by these people shows the true origin by factual evidence, is that Israelites formed from displaced Canaanites after the bronze age collapse.

We even know the people at this time 1200 -1000 BC were proto Israelites.

Not up for debate, it is now common knowledge some scholars claim as fact.

 

[Shad]

No I didn't .. I said that an archaeologist cannot deduce that he DOESN'T exist..
That means that Moses might or might not exist!

A lack of evidence and competing evidence can be used to in a deductive evaluation The evidence shows that it is unreasonable to believe in his existence.

Take a few courses on reading what is written

You clarified only later then inject this comment as if you were not arguing for his existence for about a week or more. You changed your views between one comment and another without mentioning any changes. The PBUH is a dead give away that you still believe he lived and thus still an argument from ignorance.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A lack of evidence and competing evidence can be used to in a deductive evaluation The evidence shows that it is unreasonable to believe in his existence.

Well .. come on .. show us this evidence.
Anybody who agrees with you is condemning billions of people to being 'unreasonable'.
I'm sure if this were true, millions of people would no longer believe in the Bible.
Again .. show us this evidence!

The PBUH is a dead give away that you still believe he lived and thus still an argument from ignorance.

Of course I still believe that Moses existed!
However, I cannot know the complete history of this planet any more than you, so I can't be sure .. and neither can you!
Again .. show us this evidence!