Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

[Shad]

Well .. come on .. show us this evidence.

Linked references repeatedly, I am not doing so again.

Anybody who agrees with you is condemning billions of people to being 'unreasonable'.

No one condemns anyone. I am pointing out your billions are not experts thus their opinions are useless. They are taught a belief as part of their religion.

I'm sure if this were true, millions of people would no longer believe in the Bible.

Millions of people do not receive in education in any field of archaeology.

Again .. show us this evidence!

Linked references repeatedly, I am not doing so again.

Of course I still believe that Moses existed!

Thus the very argument from ignorance then demanding evidence against the claim with even establishing your claim is even correct beforehand

However, I cannot know the complete history of this planet any more than you, so I can't be sure .. and neither can you!

Irrelevant as Moses is claimed to have lived in a specific time-line in a specific area.

Again .. show us this evidence!

Linked references repeatedly, I am not doing so again.

 

[muhammad_isa]

However, I cannot know the complete history of this planet any more than you, so I can't be sure .. and neither can you!

Irrelevant as Moses is claimed to have lived in a specific time-line in a specific area.

NOT BY ME!!
Are you aware of some verses in the Bible which says exactly when he lived? Not by our modern calendar i'm sure, as it is a christian one
The area is presumably around Egypt..

Linked references repeatedly, I am not doing so again.

Not in this thread you haven't!

 

[paarsurrey]

I have always said the authors of the koran, and I have said repeatedly he just sold the text to the people with bloodshed.

It is simply wrong. The Recitation/Quran is authored by G-d like the Universe has been made by Him and none else.
Regards

 

[Shad]

NOT BY ME!!

Irrelevant as the sources of your beliefs do make this claims. The fact that you do not know this is just your ignorance not a defense.

Are you aware of some verses in the Bible which says exactly when he lived?

Yes there actually a number of places he lived. Perhaps you should read the Bible.

Not by our modern calendar i'm sure, as it is a christian one

Irrelevant as the study and use of different calendars is not a major issue.

The area is presumably around Egypt..

Nope. He was in Egpyt for years, then east of it then back in Egpyt then back east of it again then in modern Jordan. Again read the Bible, you can keyword search Moses for specific passages or as a starting point read the Book of Exodus.

Not in this thread you haven't!

Yes I have. Go back through the thread. *edit*

http://www.amazon.ca/What-Biblical-Writers-Know-When/dp/080282126X
http://www.amazon.ca/Were-Early-Israelites-Where-They/dp/0802844162
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Ancient/dp/0684869136
http://www.amazon.com/The-Oxford-History-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0192804588
https://www.andrews.edu/archaeology/archive/merling/newpage5.htm

You can go watch the lectures I mentioned for free which covers a lot of evidence already within the above books by various experts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Irrelevant as the sources of your beliefs do make this claims..

I'm not aware that the Qur'an gives any CALENDAR DATE for the life of Moses, peace be with him.

Yes there actually a number of places he lived. Perhaps you should read the Bible.

Umm .. I said WHEN he lived

Irrelevant as the study and use of different calendars is not a major issue.

Of course it is! I assume that your belief that Moses didn't exist is based on a specific time-frame?

Yes I have. Go back through the thread to see how wrong you are troll.

troll? .. that explains a lot .. you're a rude youngster

OK .. I did go through the thread and I didn't notice that one post .. sorry
They are links to books from amazon .. I have to buy the books to get 'this evidence' do I?

NB The last link is not relevant
..also, I do not have flash on my old computer so can't see video content

 

[Shad]

I'm not aware that the Qur'an gives any CALENDAR DATE for the life of Moses, peace be with him.

The Bible contain a chronology. The Quran uses Moses reference and accept that this chronology is accurate.

Umm .. I said WHEN he lived

I told you to read the Bible. I also just provided another item for you to read which is the chronology.

Of course it is! I assume that your belief that Moses didn't exist is based on a specific time-frame?

Yes

troll? .. that explains a lot .. you're a rude youngster

It is rude to ask for sources that were provided 10 days ago. Since you ignore these references you are either incompetent or a troll, pick one.

OK .. I did go through the thread and I didn't notice that one post .. sorry

I have told you repeatedly to do this. Only now to you actually do wht I told you to do for days, post after post....

They are links to books from amazon .. I have to buy the books to get 'this evidence' do I?

Go to a library. You ability to buy an item is not an excuse.

NB The last link is not relevant
..also, I do not have flash on my old computer so can't see video content

Flash can work on almost any computer for the last decade or so. Download it, install it and watch. Beside the videos are in HTML 5 not flash. You do not even need to install anything beside a browser.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Bible contain a chronology. The Quran uses Moses reference and accept that this chronology is accurate.

I'm sorry .. that will not do .. most Muslims do not accept the authority of the Bible. That is because it is not accurate. While it is based on truth, many details have been altered, knowingly and unknowingly.

I assume that your belief that Moses didn't exist is based on a specific time-frame

Yes

Well there we have it. The conclusions of the archaeologists in question are basing their conclusions on the accuracy of the Bible .. NOT the Qur'an.
As this thread is about the origins of Qur'an, this particular evidence therefore is not valid

 

[Shad]

I'm sorry .. that will not do .. most Muslims do not accept the authority of the Bible. That is because it is not accurate. While it is based on truth, many details have been altered, knowingly and unknowingly.

Irrelevant as the Quran similar stories regarding Moses. The chronology is not purely from the Bible but also combined with external references

Well there we have it. The conclusions of the archaeologists in question are basing their conclusions on the accuracy of the Bible .. NOT the Qur'an.

Irrelevant as per above. The Quran has no method of dating when Moses lived thus is useless for this case anyways. Also it is 1500 years removed from the events making it even more useless.

As this thread is about the origins of Qur'an, this particular evidence therefore is not valid

Irrelevant as you asked for said evidence. You went off topic, you asked for evidence, you linked fraudulent evidence. Nice try at backpedaling

 

[muhammad_isa]

Irrelevant as the Quran similar stories regarding Moses. The chronology is not purely from the Bible but also combined with external references

What's that supposed to mean "external references"? Have these references anything to do with the Qur'an?

Irrelevant as per above. The Quran has no method of dating when Moses lived thus is useless for this case anyways. Also it is 1500 years removed from the events making it even more useless.

Exactly! You won't admit when you are wrong. Your evidence might show that Moses didn't exist in a particular time-frame at a particular place, but basing your conclusions on this is NOT valid when it comes to the Qur'an.

Irrelevant as you asked for said evidence. You went off topic, you asked for evidence, you linked fraudulent evidence. Nice try at backpedaling

I did in fact suggest that your evidence was not valid many posts ago .. I did say that I didn't know when Moses existed and you said that "most Muslims do".

Anyhow, that would be my reasons for dismissing your archaeologists conclusions. If you could prove to me WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that the prophets mentioned in the Qur'an did not exist, I would no longer be a Muslim .. I swear that to be the truth, and nothing but the truth!

..but you can't..

 

[Shad]

What's that supposed to mean "external references"? Have these references anything to do with the Qur'an?

Never said it had anything to do with the Quran. External references are sources outside the primary account(s)

Exactly! You won't admit when you are wrong.

Still not wrong as Quran being vague about Moses has zero influence over archaeology

Your evidence might show that Moses didn't exist in a particular time-frame at a particular place, but basing your conclusions on this is NOT valid when it comes to the Qur'an.

Irrelevant. The Quran presents no dating method at all thus it is useless as a source. The Quran is a non-factor. Besides there is evidence outside either holy book which is used to credit a chronology

I did in fact suggest that your evidence was not valid many posts ago .. I did say that I didn't know when Moses existed and you said that "most Muslims do".

Irrelevant as the Quran is not important to Exodus.Conquest at all. You are putting forward a source 1.5 millennia after the events which contains zero information used to construct a dating system. The Quran is irrelevant. Most Muslims following the Bible dating as the Quran is lacking. They just do not realize this fact. You should look up apologetics which attempt to name the Pharaoh.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mosespharaoh.html

Anyhow, that would be my reasons for dismissing your archaeologists conclusions.

Fallacious reasoning since you demand archaeology give merit to the Quran that it does not have, demand the Quran has influences in a subject it does not have any. Your demands are irrelevant.

If you could prove to me WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that the prophets mentioned in the Qur'an did not exist, I would no longer be a Muslim .. I swear that to be the truth, and nothing but the truth!

You want an absolute of religion project on to a field which does not deal in absolutes. Your standard is fallacious

 

[muhammad_isa]

Irrelevant. The Quran presents no dating method at all thus it is useless as a source.

You only need a source if you are 'hell bent' on proving something

Besides there is evidence outside either holy book which is used to credit a chronology

How can there be, if as according to you, he didn't exist? Double talk!

Fallacious reasoning since you demand archaeology give merit to the Quran that it does not have, demand the Quran has influences in a subject it does not have any.

I demand nothing .. you say that Moses didn't exist due to archaelogical findings. I say that it's impossible to make this conclusion, as 'the facts' you use to determine your conclusion are unreliable at best.

 

[Shad]

You only need a source if you are 'hell bent' on proving something

Which are in support of my view. However since you are not willing to support your beliefs you rely on faith and faith alone.

How can there be, if as according to you, he didn't exist? Double talk!

There are other texts that mention Moses, the Quran is one example, just that the Quran reliability in regards to Moses are not important. Another example is Strobo. You seem unable to understand that people can still write about a figure now viewed as fiction before such a conclusion was made. People can also recycle known fiction such as King Authur and Robin Hood.

I demand nothing .. you say that Moses didn't exist due to archaelogical findings.

Without a doubt is a demand.

I say that it's impossible to make this conclusion, as 'the facts' you use to determine your conclusion are unreliable at best.

No it isn't. The stories present a figure that can not be divorced from said stories. These stories have no merit as the evidence is zero for it and massively against it thus a conclusion that the stories and the Moses within it are a fiction. There could be a real Moses but neither the Quran nor Bible present this figure at all. What these stories present that is so covered in mythology that there is no real figure to find.

 

[outhouse]

you say that Moses didn't exist due to archaelogical findings

True.

I say that it's impossible to make this conclusion

What education do you possess to make credible historical conclusions that are not faith based?

as 'the facts' you use to determine your conclusion are unreliable at best.

Well here you are factually incorrect.


Factual archeological evidence points to Israel only having a handful of villages prior to 1200 BC at which time we see semi nomadic people.\


Factually after 1200 BC to 1000BC The highlands of Israel slowly grew.


These people factually used Canaanite pottery, alphabet, language and mythology.

 

[muhammad_isa]

True.

Well here you are factually incorrect.


Factual archeological evidence points to Israel only having a handful of villages prior to 1200 BC at which time we see semi nomadic people.\


Factually after 1200 BC to 1000BC The highlands of Israel slowly grew.


These people factually used Canaanite pottery, alphabet, language and mythology.

Factually, factually, factually .. sounds like a TV advert for toilet cleaner

I don't believe any of those 'facts' either!
You can accuse us of 'blind faith' and I can accuse 'your lot' of bending the truth so as to continue as an atheist.
Touche!

 

[gnostic]

What find with many relating to Islam, and its origin with Muhammad is that the Qur'an, traditions, hadiths, history and biographies are one-sided, propaganda.

And it doesn't help when Muhammad and all Muslims since then, professed a supernatural sources, for the Qur'an and Muhammad's prophethood.

That Muslims to this day, trying to make excuses about Islam's origin, just show how little truth can be found in seeking Muhammad's sources for the Qur'an.

 

[outhouse]

I don't believe any of those 'facts' either!

because you don't know, does not change the status of historicity that exist for the TRUE origins of these multiple cultures

 

[Augustus]

You can go watch the lectures I mentioned for free which covers a lot of evidence already within the above books by various experts.

Do you have the links for the lectures? Wouldn't mind watching them. Cheers

 

[outhouse]

Do you have the links for the lectures? Wouldn't mind watching them. Cheers

This is very good overview with all the key players in the game from the best to worst.

 

[Shad]

Do you have the links for the lectures? Wouldn't mind watching them. Cheers

Yes I do. Be warned there 3 dozen or so talks ranging from a few minutes to an hour. The link below is the first video of the playlist. Enjoy.

 

[Shad]

Factually, factually, factually .. sounds like a TV advert for toilet cleaner

I don't believe any of those 'facts' either!
You can accuse us of 'blind faith' and I can accuse 'your lot' of bending the truth so as to continue as an atheist.
Touche!

We are stating conclusions even theists like Aren Maeir support. He does so since he is not attached to a dogmatic version of religion that is an ideology more than a religion like the average person follows.