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Origins of the Quran

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
David M said:
Typical BS claim. Plagiarism is copying without acknowleding the source, Islam is clear on the point that it does source ideas and concepts from Judaism and Christianity so its not plagiarism.
I have to agree.
Thanks for agreeing on the point.
Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You are welcome.

Fair is fair. That the Qur'an clearly acknowledges being aware of the Jewish and Christian traditions is just a plain fact.

We all have plenty enough things to disagree about already. There is no need to deny what is quite plain to see.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That the Qur'an clearly acknowledges being aware of the Jewish and Christian traditions is just a plain fact.

Can you cite one passage that indicates being aware is the same as changing text to meet their personal needs ?


Reality is that Israelites Plagiarized Canaanite and Mesopotamian sources for their text.

christians plagiarized OT text for their religion.

islam plagiarized them all.

It is nothing negative at all, its just what happened.


pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
VERB
  1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.

No where in the koran does the book say it used biblical traditions, it says it is aware of the perverted and corrupted biblical traditions, that their prophet corrected by source of an angel.


Islam and the koran is passing off myths of Noah and Abraham and Moses as their own myths.


islam took the Abrahamic traditions and claimed it was their own correct version god sent.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But you cannot get around the claim that the biblical source is an angel, it is not an admission to using biblical text to create their book. It is the opposite correct?
I do not see why.

The Qur'an mentions the Torah and the Gospels explicitly. What else do you require as acknowledgement?

Are we to assume that the Archangel would not know the biblical text?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
example

Psalms 104:19
Bible:

He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
Psalms 104:19 -KJV

Qur'an:
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did God create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
Qur'an 10:5
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There is no debate here.

Genesis 1:31
Bible:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 - KJV
Qur'an:

Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six Days, then He mounted the Throne. The Beneficent! Ask anyone informed concerning Him!
Qur'an 25:59
 

outhouse

Atheistically
pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
VERB
  1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.


There is two concepts we have to deal with in the definition itself, as it is two parts.

#1 Did islam incorporate biblical mythology and text ? factually yes it did that qualifies this part of the definition ""take (the work or an idea of someone else) "

#2 What does islam claim is the origin of the text? factually they claim the origin is their own divine revelation from god through the angel Gabriel directly to muhammad, correcting corrupt biblical text. "" pass it off as one's own. ""
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Did God promise no verses from previous revelations or something?

Sorry, I am still not seeing the problem, Outhouse.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Sorry, I am still not seeing the problem, Outhouse.

Plagiarism is not a problem it is history that has repeated itself for thousands of years, most every religion that has ever existed plagiarized concepts and claimed them as their own.

If the koran was not plagiarized, it would be called the bible.

islam is passing the copied text off as its own divine revelation, but that is not an academic position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)


Please notice the key phrase ITS OWN

pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
VERB
  1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Whatever, Gharib. My claim is no more ludicrous than the claims which Muslims accept. You don't have any evidence either other than Muhammad said so.
You are right I don't have anything other than Muhammed said so. And you too have a right to reject that, I don't have a problem with that. You don't need to give me evidence for your rejection, but to make a claim as you did then you are obliged to provide evidence otherwise what I said stands.

Finally, an honest admission, that you are taking what Muhammad said and what he taught are based on your "faith", and not upon "evidence".

This is what I have problems with most Muslims (as well as with some Christians), that they often confused EVIDENCEs with FAITH.

They were never the same things, and they are not the same things.

Faith has always being accepting what they believe to be true, regardless of any available or possible evidence.

Faith does not require what they believe it can be tested and verified to being true.

Faith would be required to accept Muhammad's claim that an angel Gabriel visited him or that he received the Qur'an from God. You're relying on his say so, with no evidences that what claimed to be true.

You have also claimed that a verse in the Qur'an have knowledge of the expanding universe (Big Bang cosmology), but that more a matter of you misinterpreting the verse, by equating heavens to the modern concept of the universe. You wrote:

If Muhammed copied the Bible how would he know not to copy those parts which are contradictory? How did he come up with the notion that the universe is expanding, the Bible doesn't teach this, no one taught this back then. How could he have known which parts to copy and which not?

When I read the same verse, I see the original context, where heavens = "skies".

Ancient people have always described the heaven(s) as the "sky", not the "universe", because they really had no concept of the universe. And they have many names for the sky, and not just heavens. These are "firmament", "vault", "dome", and surprise, surprise "expanse".

And you are wrong about the Bible not mentioning expanding skies.

Jeremiah 10:12 KJV said:
12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

I hate the word - "heaven" or "heavens" because it could mean a number of things in the ancient and modern worlds. It could mean God's abode or where the departed soul dwelled in their afterlife, it could mean the sky or it could mean the modern definition of the universe.

The Jewish Publication Society (1985, also known as NJPS) has a better translation to this verse from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 10:12 NJPS said:
12 He made the earth by His might, Established the world by His wisdom, And by His understanding stretched out the skies.

Here is translation of Genesis 1:6-8, and you will see what I mean by describing heavens with different names, so below are 2 different translations (again, using KJV & NJPS), which you will see:

Genesis 1:6-8 KJV said:
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

As you can see the "firmament" and "heaven" is the sky, and the last verse say God called the "firmament Heaven". Did you notice that KJV emphasised heaven with a capital "H"?

Now compare these verses with NJPS translation:

Genesis 1:6-8 NJPS said:
6 God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water.” 7 God made the expanse, and it separated the water which was below the expanse from the water which was above the expanse. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

As you can see the sky = expanse (NJPS) = firmament (KJV) = heaven (KJV).

I don't think you are really qualified to say what the bible do or do not say, especially if you haven't read the bible.

But I am not saying that this verse in Jeremiah means "expanding the universe"; it is just referring the heavens to the sky, as the following verse indicated.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Muslims.

I was told by a christian the other day that Muhammad took parts of the Bible and put it into the Quran. She asserted that her faith is true one of many reasons because other religions "stole" from the Bible. Is the former true?

I told her that time period doesnt change a sacred book's authenticity. How does being the oldest abrahamic faith (which I believe is Judaism to make it simple) make one religion true and the other false?
Sorry for being late to the party . . . here is some info about Allah that you might find of interest in lieu of your inquiry

Allāh was the pre-Islamic Arabian Creator God worshiped in times of extreme crisis. All the pre-Islamic tribes of Arabia venerated him as the Supreme Being. These tribes were all polytheistic yet not unlike the Egyptian and Vedic pantheons, they acknowledged Allāh to be the creator of the universe; the father of the gods, angels and the primordial energies of the universe known as Djinn, as well as the supreme being who controls the mechanisms of the universe: the Arabian counterpart of the ancient Hebrew creator god Eloah, the Babylonian Ilu; the Phoenician Elos; the Aramaean 'Elah; and the Canaanite El. A black meteorite called al-Hajar al-Aswad was kept at a shrine in the corner of the Ka’aba: Allāh was believed to house a portion of his power within this mysterious black stone due to its alleged heavenly origins. Allāh resided in a place called Aliyyin with the other gods (ālihah) and angels (malā'ikah).
 

use_your_brain

Active Member
Find me a single muslims that agrees the biblical traditions were copied.

Find me a single passage in the koran that states biblical mythology was taken from the bible.

Regardless of what you state, the koran used many biblical myths, and it states the origin is an angel not the actual biblical text that taught these men the biblical traditions.

The whole religion is based on a new revelation of a more true divine knowledge, and that is plagiarism. And its not academically followed either.
As long as it copied and plagiarized the good and the true things then we suppose to accept and to believe it.
 
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