Mr Spinkles, I don't like the course of conversation in the few last post so I'll try to summarize my position again and my points of discussion in this thread maybe then it is going to be a better "last word". But first it's better to keep in mind that we are from very different places and cultures.
If we want to judge the man himself then before participating in this thread I said here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/114997-osama-bin-laden-mujahid-vs-criminal.html
And if we put the killing of innocent souls in a scale and the cause he worked for in the other scale; I think the scale of the murder of innocents will absolutely tilt.
But maybe while looking more into the entire issue of Bin Laden, I become more skeptic if he did say this or that or did he do this or that. But it's enough to say if he or anyone was responsible for the killing of innocents, the scale of murdering innocents will absolutely tilt regardless of his cause/motivation. But also this shouldn't mean ignoring the motivation and cause. And what we actually can do is to talk about what's apparent and express our views on it, maybe even regardless if this specific person Bin Laden really said it or did it or not.
In this current thread, I made a distinction between let me call it "theoretical" views and work. From the very beginning, I said I refuse the means or the "work". But I don't refuse what this man represented of opposition and hatred to the US policies towards the Islamic world.
So what happened you posted links (links of speeches) and I said I have no problem with these speeches and again I excluded the parts that justify any killing of civilians.
Very generally speaking, I don't disagree with the contents of the links
Characterization like "Crusade-Zionist war" doesn't bug me, on the contrary, it might come out of me myself, calling the US bases in KSA "occupation" or "treason" doesn't sensitize me, what happened to the US in Somalia doesn't upset me, etc.
Due to the wide anti-US sentiment that is in the Arab world specifically and in the Islamic world generally, this kind of talk is not new, simply I am used to it. Moreover, I can agree with such views and characterizations very much.
If I wanted to read a piece of article about the US in Somalia by Muslim writers, mostly there would be condemnation of the US and the UN behavior and crimes, or describing the situation as how it turned from providing food to killing women and children. In addition, the real motives for presence of the US is very questionable. What I just said represent a fair section of Muslims and their intellectuals. And I am one of them.
Now you as an American, might feel offended by these views - it's your country after all - you might think that mere noble feelings were behind the presence of the US in Somalia and they made some unintentional mistakes and the situation deteriorated and moreover finding some sort of understanding of why the soldiers there killed civilians (like: "160 soldiers were surrounded, cut off, and fighting a pitched battle for over 24 hours. More than half of them were killed or wounded..."). Ok, I understand (although there are Americans who can be the first to speak about the hidden motives of the US, the war crimes of the American soldiers there, etc, and they are few). And you have to be more fair to me and understand where I am coming from, of course if you are interested in understanding in the first place. If you might look at it this way, I have no reason to look at it the same way you do. On the contrary all the reasons lead me to look at it differently. And I have no problem with anyone characterizing it as "humiliation of the USA" and I think, I did call it this.
And the same goes to the other topics, the USA bases in KSA and the gulf region generally, this American penetration that happened during and after the gulf war is a real shame and it's the main event that led to the status of submissiveness that our Arabic world lives in.
You might simply look at it as some military bases in these countries and it's not that big deal. It's a big deal to me and to many others.
Again, your are free to view it however you want but don't expect me to condemn the language that described it as "occupation" or "treason" because the truth is it's indeed. This is my view.
The other thing about the 9/11 attacks. I believe that I don't have to accept the official American account and I know that you do know that there are American people who are skeptical about this account and there are others who believe that Bin Laden wasn't behind it; multiple articles, seminars, books and websites are made for this view. But this is not how you replied to me.
I don't want to go more into the examples, I just want to make a point and what I expressed is very common among my people, Egyptians, Arabs and Muslims. Simply, I am one of them.
I keep my skeptical look and even it grows more.
I do hate the American policies because it represents tyranny and injustice to me and I hate them. I have my radical disagreements with the ideological and values system of the American and Western societies and I can't view this dominating injustice separated from the Western ideologies and values and I started some threads about the Western civilization, modernism and secularism and occasionally talked about it in the debates. And to me, the entire story is summarized in two words "belief" and "disbelief". I am sure you will disagree.
I feel this was the best I can do in explaining my stance. I don't expect a different reaction from you, because I didn't say anything new, maybe I was more organized that's all and this might give me the sense of being more satisfied with this last clarification. And my views and beliefs are very relevant just as yours, the US is very relevant to the discussion but unfortunately your comments were not fair.
