Osama picture to be released

[Kathryn]

Oh the delicate sensitivities of our 21st century society will surely be irrepairably shaken by such gore!

Spoiler: Sensitive Images

 

[no-body]

Finally a president with class instead of a chimp. Yeah, yeah, yeah: "there is no moral high ground when you kill people, the terrorist show head cutting videos and blah, blah, blah"

Whatever you either get it or you don't.

 

[Kathryn]

Supposedly this "kill" was legitimate. Showing these photos would not be comparable to terrorists' videos of people being beheaded. The would be more along the lines of the photos released after the Nazi war criminals were executed after the Nuremburg trials, or the release of photos of the deaths of notorious criminals.

Spoiler: Sensitive Images

Mussolini's body on display to the press

Jesse James' body

Bonnie and Clyde's bodies on display for photos

Valentines Day massacre (Mafia hit) - police photo released to public

These photos were all released by authorities to the public because they felt that the public (who was endangered by these people) had the right to full disclosure of their deaths. Releasing photos of the deaths of notorious criminals to the public is no new, novel, or particularly shocking concept.

 

[Starsoul]

"Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are one and the same. At an operational level we might have different strategies, but at the policy level we are one and the same," Nazir Ahmed

here is the interview where this taliban leader admits that the taliban and alqaeda are linked

If you dont believe that Bin Laden has anything to do with the suicide bombers, that may be true, however, he is guilty by association

Ahem, pegg this isn't true. Lol this is so far away from truth.

p.s : dont fall for the silly statements of this faction of taliban that you have quoted, they themselves even don't know what they are all about, one moment they claim responsibility for something and at the next they deny it completely, thats called begging for bad publicity, if not anything else, these people just aren't reliable : )

The only reason they put forth such statements, is to 'scare' the people and the establishment, just empty threats that don't fool anyone, except some, i guess.

 

[Starsoul]

If the Muslim nations did not export terrorism, we wouldn't "interfere."

This is the classic Muslim game I like to call "shoot and whine." Osama shoots, Muslims whine about response.

Yeah you're particularly right about this one, especially the part where osama was well trained for many years by the Cia. : P

Muslims whine because 'such' was the make and by product of the Us, that the people in Afghanistan and pakistan have paid a huge price for, all for what? There were muslims who died in 911, lacs of numbers of muslims kept on dying much much longer after 911, and yet they still live under the imminent threat of a possible back lash from alq.

what has US gained by this, they have successfully diverted the terrorists's attention to this region, and viola, what a victory.

 

[Starsoul]

since when did mosques have anything to do with america?

Do you need to see a list of mosques that have been bombed in pakistan, iraq, afghanistan and other places?



Pakistani province of Peshawar, kill 5 October 22, 2010
Oct. 22, 2010: Five people were killed when an IED was detonated inside a mosque in Peshawar.
Oct. 7, 2010: Two suicide bombers killed eight people in a coordinated attack on the Abdullah Shah Ghazi shrine in Karachi.
Sept. 3, 2010: A suicide bomber attempted to storm a mosque in Mardan, but was stopped by security guards. One person was killed after he detonated his vest.
Sept. 1, 2010: Suicide bombers detonated during Shia religious processions in Lahore, killing 28 people.
Aug. 23, 2010: A suicide bomber detonated at a mosque in Wana, South Waziristan, killing 18 people.
July 1, 2010: Suicide bombers detonated at the Data Ganj Bakhsh shrine in Lahore, killing 41 people and wounding more than 170.
May 28, 2010: The Punjabi Taliban assaulted two Ahamadi mosques in Lahore, killing more than 70 people.
n an attack on a mosque in a remote village in Dir.
126.htm"]March 5, 2009[/URL]: An attacker threw a hand grenade into the
Feb. 5, 2009: A suicide attack outside a mosque killed more than 30 Shia worshipers and wounded more than 50.
Nov. 22, 2008: A bombing at a mosque in Hangu killed five civilians and wounded seven.
Nov. 21, 2008: A suicide attack on a funeral procession in Dera Ismail Khan killed 10 mourners and wounded more than 25.
Sept. 10, 2008: The Taliban attacked a mosque filled with Ramadan worshipers in the district of Dir in northwestern Pakistan. More than 25 worshipers were killed and more than 50 were wounded.
Aug. 19, 2008: A suicide bomber killed 29 Shia mourners and wounded 35 after detonating in the emergency ward of a hospital.
June 17, 2008: Four Pakistanis were killed and three wounded in a bombing at a Shia mosque in Dera Ismail Khan.
May 19, 2008: Four Pakistanis were killed in a bombing outside a mosque in Bajaur.
Jan. 17, 2008: A suicide bomber killed 10 and wounded 25 in an attack on a Shia mosque in Peshawar.
Dec. 28, 2007: A suicide bomber detonated in the middle of a mosque in Charsadda in an attempt to kill former Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao as he conducted Eid prayers. More than 50 were killed and more than 200 were wounded.

and this is just in pakistan! Iraq and Afghanistan are another story.
​

You do get these news, but how come you don't get those news where the perpetrators of these attacks, whenever found out, link back up to the spying agencies of neighbouring and other countries?

 

[waitasec]

You do get these news, but how come you don't get those news where the perpetrators of these attacks, whenever found out, link back up to the spying agencies of neighbouring and other countries?

well?
can you support this?
i like to see some of this news...
till then...

 

[Willamena]

Agreed!

And 23 children in the compound?! Yikes. Bless those involved who were able to target bin Laden without hurting innocent children.

The Ghaddafi's weren't so blessed.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Jesus Christ, Kathryn, can you please stop posting gruesome photos? It's not necessary. We get it.

 

[Chisti]

All these pictures must be removed by the moderators without delay.

 

[AfterGlow]

It's a bit like people rubber-necking to see the results of a car crash, doesn't show humanity at it's best.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Isn't it about what the presence of foreign troops in Saudi Arabia actually represents?
After Saddam Hussein's crazy move, Bin Laden asked the royal family not to depend on foreign non Muslim help, and of course the the Saudi regime welcomed the US "assistance" and then he opposed the presence of the foreign military forces in KSA. The problem was about the growing presence of the USA. Some Muslims characterized the presence of the US in KSA as a treason to Muslims, Allah and His prophet. It is obvious that the presence of the USA in the region and especially "the land of the two scared mosques" caused frustration to many Muslims. I thought this can be understandable.
Didn't the US expand and deepen its control over the Middle East after the gulf war? The presence of the American troops and bases represented this situation.

I underlined the part you have right. Bin Laden wanted to lead his group of foreign troops, his Jihadis, in the assistance of KSA against Iraq. Not non-Muslims. He wanted to attack Saddam's army of tanks and missiles with his band of Jihadis, armed only with AK-47s and their faith. The Saudi royals thought the world's largest military power would stand a better chance, and be a better strategy for their country against Iraq.

Now, you can agree or disagree with their choice. And you can even say you agree with Bin Laden's opposition to expanding American power in the globe. But let's not romanticize Bin Laden's opinion, and turn it into something it wasn't. Lots of people criticize the US/Israeli policy towards Palestinians, and work hard to change it. Bin Laden was not unique here. What made him unique was:

(1) his stance that innocent civilians should be targeted directly,

(2) violent means should be used instead of peaceful means, and

(3) every form of US power should be opposed by such means.
​

Even an embassy in Kenya should be bombed. Why? What does that have to do with Israel/Palestine? Was the US doing anything wrong in Kenya? Apparently Bin Laden believed Kenya is a "Muslim land" even though most of the population today is Christian. He even believed the UN mission to bring food to starving people in Somalia must be opposed violently, simply because some of the countries participating were non-Muslim countries, not because of any injustice or wrong the US had committed in Somalia. Bin Laden boasted of the success in making the US withdraw troops from Somalia, after only a few US soldiers were killed. But the US troops were there as part of an international humanitarian mission! They were bringing food to starving people! Bin Laden could not see this. In his fantasy world, we are still living in the 7th century, all he could see was a "Crusader-Zionist" army conquering "Muslim lands".

Just as in Somalia, in KSA, again, Bin Laden did not cite any abuses, or injustices, or humiliations committed by American troops in KSA, or one problem caused by those troops, in his 1996 fatwa. I remember speaking once to a female U.S. officer who was stationed in KSA. Outside the base she was under strict orders to wear the headscarf. She had to have male escorts. She could not drive a car. She was an officer, and yet she had to interact with Saudi officers through her male subordinates. She found all this somewhat humiliating. However, she had to be respectful to the local laws and customs at all times.

Now, certainly I can understand if Muslims object to this arrangement. Many Americans objected to it, too! And guess what? In 2003, it ended. It's over. The US left, and the US is going to finish withdrawing troops from Iraq soon, too, no thanks to Bin Laden.

But the question is, did Bin Laden contribute anything rational, or peaceful, to resolving these issues? He simply declared the Americans are from a non-Muslim country and therefore they are "Crusader-Zionist". He was perfectly content to see bombs go off in Riyadh and kill civilians in order to make his argument. His group issued fatwas saying that killing American civilians is an obligation (here, here, and English version here). This was in 1998. His Al-Qaeda organization issued a private fatwa to its members saying that killing innocent bystanders -- including Muslims -- is okay, because if they are good Muslims they will enter Paradise. Clearly, Al-Qaeda put this into practice. No wonder so many Muslim bystanders were killed in the Al-Qaeda embassy bombings in Kenya and elsewhere. Except for 9/11, and the London and Madrid bombings, Muslim bystanders were the principle victims of Al-Qaeda attacks over the years.

Bin Laden told Al-Jazeera in 1998 following embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, explicitly that he hates Americans, the people themselves. He emphasized this hatred in 2002 because Americans are not Muslim, they are immoral, secular government, responsible for AIDS, white supremacists, etc.

Did any of this help KSA achieve a more tolerant, democratic political process? Did it get rid of US troops? Did it prevent any innocent people from dying? No. In fact, Bin Laden achieved the exact opposite in each respect. KSA used the threat of terrorism to be even more repressive in its crackdown on dissidents. The US military may have withdrawn from KSA years earlier, but they didn't want to appear to be capitulating to Bin Laden's terrorist threats. It is likely the US would never have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq if not for the "raids" Bin Laden helped plan on 9/11 (according to many sources in which Bin Laden all but confessed to helping plan the attacks, including a video released by Al-Jazeera).

If the foreign troops in KSA had been from an Islamic country, Bin Laden would have had no problem. That's why he was happy to see the Muslim troops and bases in East Timor savage and massacre the population, and he was happy to see the Taliban in Afghanistan repress women. He was happy to train and send foreign fighters to agitate violence in the Kashmir region. As long as you are sending Muslim fighters around the globe, to spread your ideology by violence, then it's perfectly okay, in Bin Laden's view. Non-Muslims, on the other hand, are not allowed to send any forces, anywhere, for any reason. Remember, he even criticized the UN for sending troops on a peacekeeping and humanitarian mission to Somalia! Somalia, a starving country!

This was a man who had no problem with violence, military occupation, power and control. But he wanted the power and control. That's why he hated the West. A lot of people hated the West for injustices committed by the West. Bin Laden stands out because he hated the West for reasons far beyond reasons of justice.

The talk about women of Afghanistan would be more proper if we were speaking about Taliban.

Well we are speaking about Bin Laden, who lived in Kandahar while he provided financial and paramilitary assistance to the Taliban and said they are "the only Islamic country in the world". How many years did Bin Laden need to live in Afghanistan and read the Taliban's fatwas before he said something about women's rights? Instead, he spent his time planning attacks on American civilians. He succeeded in those attacks and in bringing more infidel soldiers to "Muslim lands", not fewer.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Plus, when did he say music should be illegal, women should be beaten, Shi'a are heretics...etc, do you have a source?

Sorry I just wanted to make sure I responded to this since you asked for sources.

First, Zarqawi swore loyalty to Bin Laden and his group Al-Qaeda in Iraq not only considered Shia heretics, but actively bombed and killed unarmed Shia Muslims at Mosques, festivals, etc. Bin Laden couldn't issue one videotape denouncing the actions of his own affiliates?

Osama's opposition to music is from Lawrence Wright's book The Looming Tower.

And as for forcing women to wear a full burqa, including gloves, and having no right to go out or get an education, Bin Laden repeatedly declared his support for the Taliban, and gave them financial and military support, for years in Afghanistan. In all his fatwas and videos he didn't have time for a word against the Taliban's despicable treatment of women? Ask ssainhu and Bismillah what they think about how the Taliban treated women, this isn't my "Western bias" they really were as oppressive as one can imagine towards women.

 

[Rakhel]

Here's what a Republican had to say about the gruesome nature of the picture (having not seen it himself).



Holy crap. :biglaugh:

That's King for you. He also said he had a problem with how they found out where Osama was. Apparently, the info came through a water-boarding "interview."

 

[beenie]

Sahar, I genuinely (not accusatory to you or attacking you) would like to know your view of the Taliban. Specifically, do you believe they treated other Muslims well? Women?

 

[Kathryn]

Jesus Christ, Kathryn, can you please stop posting gruesome photos? It's not necessary. We get it.

You know, some people are also offended by you using the name of Jesus Christ as a curse word.

Just sayin'.

 

[Kathryn]

All these pictures must be removed by the moderators without delay.

No need to have them removed - the staff kindly added spoilers. I freely admit that I don't know how to do that, so I appreciate their attention to detail.

Surely you're not implying that you've never seen such photos before. If so, you've certainly led a very sheltered life.

 

[Sahar]

I underlined the part you have right. Bin Laden wanted to lead his group of foreign troops, his Jihadis, in the assistance of KSA against Iraq. Not non-Muslims. He wanted to attack Saddam's army of tanks and missiles with his band of Jihadis, armed only with AK-47s and their faith. The Saudi royals thought the world's largest military power would stand a better chance, and be a better strategy for their country against Iraq.

Now, you can agree or disagree with their choice. And you can even say you agree with Bin Laden's opposition to expanding American power in the globe. But let's not romanticize Bin Laden's opinion, and turn it into something it wasn't. Lots of people criticize the US/Israeli policy towards Palestinians, and work hard to change it. Bin Laden was not unique here. What made him unique was:

(1) his stance that innocent civilians should be targeted directly,

(2) violent means should be used instead of peaceful means, and

(3) every form of US power should be opposed by such means.
​

Even an embassy in Kenya should be bombed. Why? What does that have to do with Israel/Palestine? Was the US doing anything wrong in Kenya? Apparently Bin Laden believed Kenya is a "Muslim land" even though most of the population today is Christian. He even believed the UN mission to bring food to starving people in Somalia must be opposed violently, simply because some of the countries participating were non-Muslim countries, not because of any injustice or wrong the US had committed in Somalia. Bin Laden boasted of the success in making the US withdraw troops from Somalia, after only a few US soldiers were killed. But the US troops were there as part of an international humanitarian mission! They were bringing food to starving people! Bin Laden could not see this. In his fantasy world, we are still living in the 7th century, all he could see was a "Crusader-Zionist" army conquering "Muslim lands".

Just as in Somalia, in KSA, again, Bin Laden did not cite any abuses, or injustices, or humiliations committed by American troops in KSA, or one problem caused by those troops, in his 1996 fatwa. I remember speaking once to a female U.S. officer who was stationed in KSA. Outside the base she was under strict orders to wear the headscarf. She had to have male escorts. She could not drive a car. She was an officer, and yet she had to interact with Saudi officers through her male subordinates. She found all this somewhat humiliating. However, she had to be respectful to the local laws and customs at all times.

Now, certainly I can understand if Muslims object to this arrangement. Many Americans objected to it, too! And guess what? In 2003, it ended. It's over. The US left, and the US is going to finish withdrawing troops from Iraq soon, too, no thanks to Bin Laden.

But the question is, did Bin Laden contribute anything rational, or peaceful, to resolving these issues? He simply declared the Americans are from a non-Muslim country and therefore they are "Crusader-Zionist". He was perfectly content to see bombs go off in Riyadh and kill civilians in order to make his argument. His group issued fatwas saying that killing American civilians is an obligation (here, here, and English version here). This was in 1998. His Al-Qaeda organization issued a private fatwa to its members saying that killing innocent bystanders -- including Muslims -- is okay, because if they are good Muslims they will enter Paradise. Clearly, Al-Qaeda put this into practice. No wonder so many Muslim bystanders were killed in the Al-Qaeda embassy bombings in Kenya and elsewhere. Except for 9/11, and the London and Madrid bombings, Muslim bystanders were the principle victims of Al-Qaeda attacks over the years.

Bin Laden told Al-Jazeera in 1998 following embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, explicitly that he hates Americans, the people themselves. He emphasized this hatred in 2002 because Americans are not Muslim, they are immoral, secular government, responsible for AIDS, white supremacists, etc.

The US is a peaceful non Muslim country and Osama the criminal wanted to destroy it simply because Americans are non Muslims!! How naive to even suggest this! So why did he consider the US and Israel specifically as enemies of Muslims? It has nothing to do with their attitudes towards the Islamic world?!

The links of Bin Laden and Al-Zawahri's fatwa of 1998 and Bin Laden's speeches of 2001 and 2002 that you cited:
Fatwa / World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
BBC News | MEDIA REPORTS | Bin Laden rails against Crusaders and UN
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk
The man himself cited in all these links the numerous acts of injustice and oppression by the US and its allies. Very generally speaking, I don't disagree with the contents of the links, the characterization of the war on Muslims, etc, except for the parts that justify the killing of the American civilians although what he said about the responsibility of the American people for all this injustice, invasion, killing and destruction can be understood very well. I reject the call for the killing of the American civilians and they are known for their huge ignorance, generally speaking, they only care for their internal problems, problems of economics and unemployment, health problems and they have been dissociated from sharing in the foreign policy decisions of their country.
I don't disagree at all with his goals, as I said earlier, with his reading of the attacks on Muslims, with describing the American and Western civilization as the worst, with his reasons for describing it as such, with his examples of the double standard of the "civilized world", etc.

As long as you are sending Muslim fighters around the globe, to spread your ideology by violence, then it's perfectly okay, in Bin Laden's view. Non-Muslims, on the other hand, are not allowed to send any forces, anywhere, for any reason.

Hahaha!!! Really?!! :sarcastic Yeah, Bin Laden called for invading the US and Europe!! And the US and Europe are only defending themselves from the occupation and domination by Muslims!

It's very funny that you suggested that Zionist-Crusader war belongs to the 7th century whereas the previous President of the US described the war of his country as war of crusades, whereas the tyrannical and racist zionist beliefs are at work in Palestine!!
I repeat what I said; Bin Laden is nothing but a manifestation of frustration of Muslims and he is only a reaction to the real criminal. It's not expected that the US and its allies use this amount of violence, injustice and destruction, and the only reaction they should get is roses? Of course, there will be violent reactions to the first violence and injustice.

He even believed the UN mission to bring food to starving people in Somalia must be opposed violently, simply because some of the countries participating were non-Muslim countries, not because of any injustice or wrong the US had committed in Somalia. Bin Laden boasted of the success in making the US withdraw troops from Somalia, after only a few US soldiers were killed. But the US troops were there as part of an international humanitarian mission!

Oh yeah the Somalians killed the American soldiers in 1993 because of their humanitarian mission, not because they took sides and killed women and children!!

It is likely the US would never have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq if not for the "raids" Bin Laden helped plan on 9/11

The strategic goals of the US in dominating and controlling the world especially the Middle Eastern sources of energy started before 9/11. "War on terrorism" is only an apparent excuse for achieving its dirty unchangeable agenda.

(according to many sources in which Bin Laden all but confessed to helping plan the attacks, including a video released by Al-Jazeera).

This is debatable.

Osama Bin Laden's methods are like a pin in the sea of the US criminal methods.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go into the details but it's enough to emphasize that I don't agree with the means, but I agree with his views towards the US and the West generally speaking. I will try to return to comment on more things.

 

[Sahar]

Sahar, I genuinely (not accusatory to you or attacking you) would like to know your view of the Taliban. Specifically, do you believe they treated other Muslims well? Women?

Of course, I don't agree with the Taliban way and I don't wish it for any Muslim country. But I am cautious...of anything transmitted in the American and Western media.
But the facts of forcing women into these huge blue tents, banning them from having education, working, going outside their homes, etc. are enough to form a judgment about their way of treating women.

 

[beenie]

Of course, I don't agree with the Taliban way and I don't wish it for any Muslim country. But I am cautious...of anything transmitted in the American and Western media.
But the facts of forcing women into these huge blue tents, banning them from having education, working, going outside their homes, etc. are enough to form a judgment about their way of treating women.

Thank you for your reply.
I agree with you, by the way. What may have started out as a good idea got lost in the mix, unfortunately.