Osama picture to be released

[angellous_evangellous]

You must learn to control your anger and look at things objectively and without taking sides. We're all products of circumstances, AE. If we look at people that way, we can be more forgiving and compassionate even toward those who wrong us; else we can go around and call each other evil, celebrate their deaths, and so on. Which would you prefer - becoming hateful in an already hateful world, or becoming forgiving?

You know what?

Circumstances and biblical references do not justify or excuse you from calling the most notorious murderer of our time "a hero" and then turning around and criticizing my faith while advocating Ghandi.

Such hypocrisy is vile in the most extreme sense. You're advocating the very face of violence and blood and at the same time referring to Ghandi like he's some kind of authority. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Mr. X is poor and starving. He has a choice - steal and survive, or stick to principles and die. In other words, if he makes the right choice, he'll die. If he makes the wrong choice and survives, the world will call him a thief. Technically, yeah, Mr. X has a choice, but realistically, he has none. This is the case for most people, so let's give people the benefit of the doubt and not judge them harshly.

Yes, murdering for the joy of bloodlust is the same as stealing for survival.

Get a grip.

 

[Chisti]

Yes, murdering for the joy of bloodlust is the same as stealing for survival.

Get a grip.

I never said they were the same. I was giving an example to show that sometimes, people are going to suffer even when they have many options to choose from.

 

[Chisti]

You know what?

Circumstances and biblical references do not justify or excuse you from calling the most notorious murderer of our time "a hero" and then turning around and criticizing my faith while advocating Ghandi.

Such hypocrisy is vile in the most extreme sense. You're advocating the very face of violence and blood and at the same time referring to Ghandi like he's some kind of authority. You should be ashamed of yourself.

See the skydiving example I provided in another thread. An 'evil' person may do heroic deeds. Doesn't change the fact that he's 'evil', nor does it dilute his courage.

 

[Badran]

See the skydiving example I provided in another thread. An 'evil' person may do heroic deeds. Doesn't change the fact that he's 'evil', nor does it dilute his courage.

I guess the problem here is you're using the wrong word.

Heroic as i understand, aside from including courage and sacrifice, should include that what is being done would be for the good of someone else, or the greater good in general.

EDIT: Which is of course, not the case with Bin Laden.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

ppppp p p p p POE

pardon me :thud:

 

[Chisti]

I guess the problem here is you're using the wrong word.

Heroic as i understand, aside from including courage and sacrifice, should include that what is being done would be for the good of someone else, or the greater good in general.

According to a good dictionary, heroic could also mean 'imposing', 'impressive', 'surpassing ordinary standards', and sometimes it could refer simply to courage. Ethics doesn't apply in this case.

 

[Badran]

According to a good dictionary, heroic could also mean 'imposing', 'impressive', 'surpassing ordinary standards', and sometimes it could refer simply to courage. Ethics doesn't apply in this case.

I didn't know that. If you mean it in that sense then there's no problem. I thought i clarify why what you're saying might be perceived this way.

He wasn't ordinary, but i don't think Bin Laden was impressive at all

 

[Vendetta]

Christi your logic is very twisted. Then again coming from a person who thinks a rapist will stop raping you if you just lie there is no surprise. You, call yourself a Sufi Muslim call him (Osama) a victim is laughable.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Osama's children are the victims... :yes:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Christi your logic is very twisted. Then again coming from a person who thinks a rapist will stop raping you if you just lie there is no surprise. You, call yourself a Sufi Muslim call him (Osama) a victim is laughable.

It's criminal to describe that as logic. Seriously.

Even logical fallacies don't go that wrong.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

See the skydiving example I provided in another thread. An 'evil' person may do heroic deeds. Doesn't change the fact that he's 'evil', nor does it dilute his courage.

Christi is going from the extremely obscene to the just plain looney.

 

[*Anne*]

Mr. X is poor and starving. He has a choice - steal and survive, or stick to principles and die. In other words, if he makes the right choice, he'll die. If he makes the wrong choice and survives, the world will call him a thief. Technically, yeah, Mr. X has a choice, but realistically, he has none. This is the case for most people, so let's give people the benefit of the doubt and not judge them harshly.

As Angellous said, there is no comparison, and it makes for a poor example.

If Osama bin Laden expressed real remorse for his past actions, and he showed he was willing to change, and he made the effort to right wrongs, then I would definitely give him the benefit of the doubt.

He did none of these things. He could have. Realistically, he could have. But he didn't. To judge him harshly at this point, I feel, is fair. And it's not because I lack compassion. It's because I'm realistic.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Just Released!

 

[Sahar]

It's well known that Bin Ladin is a hero to many Muslims because he announced war on the USA. Also, the man participated in Jihad against the Soviets and against the American military and all these are great things. Also, some of Muslims ask for the proof that link him with the American claims about "terrorist operations".
In addition, a lot of Muslims make a distinction between the source of evil and terrorism; the US creed and policies and those who react to it. There is a difference between a country that is a superpower and control the world, and helpless oppressed Muslims who under certain circumstances adopted violence as a reaction to the first and more dangerous criminal.

Noone can disagree that Osama Bin Laden enmity to the USA is impressive and worthy of admiration but based on some of his fatwas or support of operations that targeted civilians, at the very least, since we can't be sure about the American charges, makes us stop and re-think. So a good section of Muslims disagree with some of his means but they agree with the goal of achieving independence of the Muslim nations and liberating ourselves from the American and Western domination. So the goal is noble, but the means weren't.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It's well known that Bin Ladin is a hero to many Muslims because he announced war on the USA. Also, the man participated in Jihad against the Soviets and against the American military and all these are great things. Also, some of Muslims ask for the proof that link him with the American claims about "terrorist operations".
In addition, a lot of Muslims make a distinction between the source of evil and terrorism; the US creed and policies and those who react to it. There is a difference between a country that is a superpower and control the world, and helpless oppressed Muslims who under certain circumstances adopted violence as a reaction to the first and more dangerous criminal.

Noone can disagree that Osama Bin Laden enmity to the USA is impressive and worthy of admiration but based on some of his fatwas or support of operations that targeted civilians, at the very least, since we can't be sure about the American charges, makes us stop and re-think. So a good section of Muslims disagree with some of his means but they agree with the goal of achieving independence of the Muslim nations and liberating ourselves from the American and Western domination. So the goal is noble, but the means weren't.

I think I can respect that...
After all, what we did to the Native Americans was no charity case...

 

[Vendetta]

I disagree that his goals were noble. Considering the fact that he was a proponent to a Palestinian state and called for the elimination of Israel and Jews does not make one noble even if he physically couldn't act out those ideas. However going back to muslims disagreein with Osama I just find it amusing that whenever rejection of terrorism and now Osama is mentioned, the mention of United States policies are mentioned. True, the U.S. has shown favortisim to things that only serve as self-interest, we as Americans don't deny that.

But I find it problematic for any Muslim to condemn Osama yet wants to mention U.S. policy. Writ is wrong regardless what perspective Osama held. He was the cause of thousands of people to lose their lives. True righteousness from a religious leader doesn't involve war and the fact that there is no Caliph or Islamic state I find his religious reasons to attack people is beyond me

 

[Chisti]

But I find it problematic for any Muslim to condemn Osama yet wants to mention U.S. policy.

Nothing exists or happens in a vacuum. We cannot see one person or event in isolation from the rest. All things are inter-related.

 

[Sahar]

The goal is noble in every aspect because it's all about independence. Whether liberating Muslim nations from Israel or the US or any other imperialistic country. Elimination of the Jews is just a repetition of the Zionist propaganda. A huge section of Muslims view Israel as illegitimate occupation and of course in addition to its actions of terrorism and racism. What I am saying it's very normal that many Muslims want to liberate Palestine from this occupying force and entity. No problem for the Jews to live with Muslims or with any other people. But this should be based on justice and equality. Since Israel is against any sense of justice and morality, it's normal to be against the presence of such entity.

No, it's crucial when we speak about Bin Ladin and Al-Qaida to speak about the main cause for their presence. Because it's a manifestation of the status of frustration and anger against unjust and oppressive policies, it's a reaction that perhaps went too far, yes and it's expected at the same time.

 

[Vendetta]

The issue of the occupation of in the Middle East is best left with those who are knowledgable of the political aspect. However if nobility according to Islam is the instruction of youths who are angry to target people who have no military power or influence of governmental affairs would lead me to believe that this philosophy is misguided. I think if getting rid of an occupying force needs to have a physical solution there needs to be a univeral consensus along with peaceful dialogue that needs to commence. Simply encouraging impoverished and angry people promising them something which is not in accordance to Islam is a misguided attempt to manipulate people. How this is seen is obviously from our individual perspective.

So when the media portrays this man you (Sahar) want us to remain skeptical. Ok, but what media outlet do we see as most credible? Surely not Al-Jazeera. I tend to find all mainstream media very rarely provide objective reports.