OT God's Wrath

[JustWondering]

If the wrathful, jealous, and genocidal Old Testament God existed do you really think he would allow religions that worship idols and other gods to exist, let alone flourish for thousands of years? I think there would be far fewer religions and many more followers of abrahamic religions in the world if God as described in the OT actually existed.

 

[Breathe]

Okay?

Maybe such an entity would, perhaps it did not have as much power as it claimed or thought, or if it was a sadistic entity. Arguably there is the free will argument, too. What do you mean when you say 'other gods', and how would another god be able to fight another god?

 

[JustWondering]

Okay?

Maybe such an entity would, perhaps it did not have as much power as it claimed or thought, or if it was a sadistic entity. Arguably there is the free will argument, too. What do you mean when you say 'other gods', and how would another god be able to fight another god?

If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God. All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship. Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?

 

[JMorris]

Okay?

Maybe such an entity would, perhaps it did not have as much power as it claimed or thought, or if it was a sadistic entity. Arguably there is the free will argument, too. What do you mean when you say 'other gods', and how would another god be able to fight another god?

not to mention there are billions upon billions of other planets in this universe. perhaps he, some time ago, decided he had terrorized us sufficiently, and left us to start a new planet with new people to terrorize. maybe we got boring, maybe we didnt get terrorized enough for his amusement. maybe he took a cosmic nap. maybe....... who cares? lets just be thankful he isnt around anymore.

 

[Breathe]

If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God. All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship. Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?

Not being nit-picky, but the Bible in the Torah hints more at henotheism or monolatry than monotheism. No other gods before. Not no other gods or no gods except me.

Also not to be nit-picky, but most adherents of Hinduism are monistic, not polytheistic. I'd still imagine the being of the Torah to find it abhorrent though, but oh well.

 

[Breathe]

<<snip>>

Or all of them.

maybe....... who cares? lets just be thankful he isnt around anymore.

Now I can say amen to that.

 

[Levite]

If the wrathful, jealous, and genocidal Old Testament God existed do you really think he would allow religions that worship idols and other gods to exist, let alone flourish for thousands of years? I think there would be far fewer religions and many more followers of abrahamic religions in the world if God as described in the OT actually existed.

Um...I have a problem with the extremely superficial reading of Hebrew Scriptures that this phrasing implies.

That said, you are completely neglecting the fact of human free will. God, at least as Judaism understands God to be, does not simply blast nations out of existence for idolatry, nor does He change people's minds against their will.

You are also ignoring the fact that God wishes the Jewish people not to worship other gods. There is nothing that says that non-Jews can't worship whoever they like (yes, I know about the Noahide commandments, but those are a midrashic invention of the Rabbis of the Talmud. There is no evidence those "commandments" ever existed prior to the Talmudic period, nor even any evidence that the Rabbis of the Talmud ever imagined any non-Jews would follow them).

I think it would be helpful if, before bashing the so-called God of the Hebrew Bible, maybe one actually learned how said Hebrew Bible was supposed to be interpreted and read: i.e., not everything is literal, and everything is subject to radical interpretation.

 

[JustWondering]

The great flood, the tower of babel, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ten plagues are all examples of the OT God enforcing his will through force and killing. No one can stop him. Logically, why would he suddenly stop punishing/killing those that stray if that is obviously how he operates and it gets the desired results?

 

[silhouette]

The great flood, the tower of babel, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ten plagues are all examples of the OT God enforcing his will through force and killing. No one can stop him. Logically, why would he suddenly stop punishing/killing those that stray if that is obviously how he operates and it gets the desired results?

Why stop? Perhaps someone killed him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... everything is subject to radical interpretation.

How convenient.

 

[silhouette]

If the wrathful, jealous, and genocidal Old Testament God existed do you really think he would allow religions that worship idols and other gods to exist, let alone flourish for thousands of years? I think there would be far fewer religions and many more followers of abrahamic religions in the world if God as described in the OT actually existed.

He's just a big, imaginary bully.

 

[chiefofsinners]

Your Question: "If the wrathful, jealous, and genocidal Old Testament God existed do you really think he would allow religions that worship idols and other gods to exist, let alone flourish for thousands of years? I think there would be far fewer religions and many more followers of abrahamic religions in the world if God as described in the OT actually existed."

Should we assume the former by what we see in the latter without considering them together? With so much evil flourishing in the world and falsity prevailing among the many, would it not be more fascinating to ponder why there is any good in this world at all - if even reflected in just a few? If the nature of the earth is bent on violence and involuntary suffering, why not wonder about the origin (and persistence) of peace and/or philanthropy and/or loving self-sacrifice?

And considering that, would it not be within reason (indeed one higher than ours) that this almighty G-d, jealous over His own creation, having demonstrated His powerful wrath in a few at the beginning, might tolerate the wrath of many later to demonstrate His good will and love for all in the end?
It is to our great fortune that our G-d is Who He is, and to His great honor that He hides His greatness from the proud of this world - that mankind's own true pride might be perfected in His greatness for eternity (though it be hidden for a time in our shame).

---
In my own pride i once said "there is no G-d" - now humbled, i wonder: how could i have relied only on things of flesh i could see with my eyes and hear with my ears to reason about One unseen Who is spirit? And having done so and (logically) not arrived at the knowledge of Him and His distinguished Spirit, why then did i not stop at my ignorance? Rather, adding foolishness to my lack of understanding, i proceeded to mock Him and His instruction in the law, vocally denying His justice and rejecting the righteousness of His judgments - all the while thinking myself wise in condemning the Judge, Who had yet to even execute His judgment fully...(and before which i couldn't stand for a moment)

how could i have known He had intended good by extending His patience? how could i have known it was mercy and not weakness that held His power beyond our sight? how could i have ever imagined the overwhelming goodness of the surprise awaiting those who seek Him with all their heart and the beauty of His countenance upon those who call on Him directly. who would have thought it? and who would believe a human report? If you will not accept my testimony of His goodness, on what basis can one accept any other testimony of His non-goodness?

"Out of the depths I cried to the Lord, and from His high place He heard and had mercy on me."
"Taste and see that the Lord is good."

 

[JustWondering]

Should we assume the former by what we see in the latter without considering them together? With so much evil flourishing in the world and falsity prevailing among the many, would it not be more fascinating to ponder why there is any good in this world at all - if even reflected in just a few? If the nature of the earth is bent on violence and involuntary suffering, why not wonder about the origin (and persistence) of peace and/or philanthropy and/or loving self-sacrifice?

Evil is a concept created by humans and can mean different things to different people.

Peace and self-sacrifice exist because humans are social creatures and it is in our nature to gather into groups and protect those close to us.

So back to the topic, if the God that is described in the OT really exists why did he suddenly stop using all his heavy handed tactics for the past few thousand years?

 

[JustWondering]

I think it would be helpful if, before bashing the so-called God of the Hebrew Bible, maybe one actually learned how said Hebrew Bible was supposed to be interpreted and read: i.e., not everything is literal, and everything is subject to radical interpretation.

So I have to interpret whats in the bible the way you interpret it? Why do people need lessons to understand what is in the bible? It seems pretty clear cut to me.

Are you saying the great flood, the tower of babel, and the destruction of sodom and gomorrah mentioned in the bible are just stories and should not be taken literally? If so, what purpose do these stories serve?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God. All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship. Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?

Great point.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Underwhelming point ...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Underwhelming point ...

But can you provide him with a concrete answer?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God. All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship. Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?

Great point.

Underwhelming point ...

But can you provide him with a concrete answer?

Good grief!

The "concrete answer" is that the original assertion is both ignorant and thoughtless babble ...

1. If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God.
   Phrases such as "only true God" are worthless invitations to the No True Scotsman fallacy.​
2. "All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship."
   Nonsense. The Tanach is peppered with evidence of monolatry. So, for example, there is zero evidence to suggest that the author(s) of Samuel believe or intended to paint Dagon as imaginary.​
3. "Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?"
   • God (as described in the OT) also had no problem in not wiping out unbelievers, as demonstrated by the repeated introduction of the Philistines and Amalekites.
   • God (as described in the OT) tends to "wipe out" folks, not for being unbelievers, but for immoral conduct (the flood), or clear affronts against a nascent Israelite nation.

JustWondering should try just thinking, an approach which might serve you as well.​

Concrete enough?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Good grief!

The "concrete answer" is that the original assertion is both ignorant and thoughtless babble ...

1. If God existed as described in the Old Testament he would be the only true God.
   
   Phrases such as "only true God" are worthless invitations to the No True Scotsman fallacy.
   ​
2. "All other gods would be imaginary gods thought up by unbelievers to worship."
   
   Nonsense. The Tanach is peppered with evidence of monolatry. So, for example, there is zero evidence to suggest that the author(s) of Samuel believe or intended to paint Dagon as imaginary.
   ​
3. "Since God (as described in the OT) has no problem with wiping out unbelievers why didn't he destroy (for example) all followers of Hinduism and/or Shintoism a long time ago since that is how he would act as described in the OT?"
   
   
   

   • God (as described in the OT) also had no problem in not wiping out unbelievers, as demonstrated by the repeated introduction of the Philistines and Amalekites.
   • God (as described in the OT) tends to "wipe out" folks, not for being unbelievers, but for immoral conduct (the flood), or clear affronts against a nascent Israelite nation.

JustWondering should try just thinking, an approach which might serve you as well.
​

Concrete enough?

You see, now you're putting in a valuable opinion. Interesting that you would bring up monoaltry though. It is a belief you personally hold?

 

[JustWondering]

God (as described in the OT) tends to "wipe out" folks, not for being unbelievers, but for immoral conduct (the flood), or clear affronts against a nascent Israelite nation.

So God killed people for immoral conduct. Why hasn't he killed people for immoral conduct in the past few thousand years or so?