Others can't see God exactly as you do.

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Lying is also useful and sometimes even necessary to communicate. Look at it this way, without ideas, "existence" doesn't exist. Because existence, itself, is an idea that we generate in our minds from the sea of otherwise undifferentiated and meaningless phenomena in which we live. Without ideas, that sea remains just a sea of meaningless phenomena. We can't even experience being here without ideation. There's no "reality" for us without it. Perception IS conception.

I agree ideas are useful. I never said they were not. Idea's do not make reality. There are probably sea creatures we do not have any idea that exist. That does not mean they do not exist.

All certainty is delusion. The best we humans can do is extrapolate a reasonable probability. We need to learn to be honest about this, and stop pretending that we are "almost 100% certain". Certainty in any percentage is delusion. Establishing probability and allowing it to remain probability helps to keep us more honest and sane.

I disagree. Look around you and you can see that we can have a high level of certainty about a lot of things. This is demonstrable everyday.

But it is not the "truth of that thing". How an automobile functions is not the truth of the automobile.

It is a truth of the automobile, so is the color and shape etc.

How my body functions is not the truth of me.

There is no one truth about you. There are many truths, some about function, some about beliefs etc.

Science does not discover the truth of anything. It only discovers the physical functionality.

This is untrue. For example, through science people have discovered that the sun is made up of mostly hydrogen. That is a truth about the sun that says nothing about how it functions.

To discover the truth of things, we need to employ philosophy, art, and even religion.

Those can be employed to find truth, however, these have been demonstrated to be an inferior method to find truth than science. What truth has religion discovered?

What do you mean by the "truth of things"?

I agree. When people state that "God is real", they have as yet said nothing. Because the question is; "what God is real in what ways?" Clearly God is real, or we couldn't be discussing it.

This is where you muddy the waters. When you say God is real because we have had an idea of God confuses the meaning of what you are trying to communicate. Most people in everyday language talk about the idea of god and god existing as two different things. If you must say God exists, and all you mean is that an idea of god exists then you need to more clear.

But reality encompasses a great many ideas, things, and states, and circumstances. In fact, it encompasses EVERYTHING. So we need to learn to stop being so cryptic, and start being more articulate and honest about what we proclaim to others if we want anyone else to understand us.

This is funny because you are the one being cryptic using language in a different way than most people would use it. The ideas of existence and non existence as used by most people is very useful in everyday life and in discovering new truths and makes things more clear.

 

[F1fan]

That should worry you.

And in your somewhat biased view against science, why should I worry that I don't see people idolizing science? If I'm wrong why didn't you explain it to me?

Human certainty is delusion.

Only when we can't verify what we think is true. For example we can be certain of cause and effects in physics. Our whole technological endeavors rely on these phenomenon acting on matter the same way all the time. And they do. Delusion?

Now if a guy claims God is a certainty, well then you are correct.

The best we can ever do is extrapolate probability. "Certainty", in whatever degree, is not logically possible for us, and is therefor a lie.

Really, so you board an airplane and it takes off and you look out a window and see the grand far below and clouds around you it's not logically possible to be certain you are flying? Do you want your pilots to be that confused about it?

And lies that we believe, ourselves, are called delusions. People who believe that science uncovers the truth of things are delusional.

So Pasteur was delusional when he discovered germ theory? Zsilard was delusional when he discovered the nuclear chain reaction? All the conclusions in science are delusional? The heliocentric model of the solar system is delusional?

So I take it you love your life without ANY of the benefits that science has brought humanity, yes? I'm curious how you get internet access since that was all created through delusion.

All science uncovers is how things function. And how a thing functions is not the truth of that thing. Yet many refuse to accept this. Instead, they make science a false idol, and pretend it's the fountain of truth for mankind.

I hope you are not one of these.

Truth means "conforms to what is true" so how is science explaining what is true about how things are not a truth?

Or are you singling out the word 'truth" only for ideological beliefs, which tend not to be true when examined? Upside Down world?

 

[F1fan]

Lying is also useful and sometimes even necessary to communicate. Look at it this way, without ideas, "existence" doesn't exist.

How do you figure this? Ideas are products of brains. A brain has to exist FIRST before it can conceive.

Because existence, itself, is an idea that we generate in our minds from the sea of otherwise undifferentiated and meaningless phenomena in which we live. Without ideas, that sea remains just a sea of meaningless phenomena. We can't even experience being here without ideation. There's no "reality" for us without it. Perception IS conception.

Or are you pushing a anthropocentric view here, where nothing has value or meaning UNLESS a human assigns it value and meaning. That is a pretty arrogant and dubious approach. It's highly flawed and doesn't offer humans an unbiased understanding of how things are.

Who says that how humans value anything is correct? How do you fight against a nation's attitude that says "My ideology says you are worthless, so you must be exterminated."? What is that ideology is backed by a holy book and a God?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Leprechauns do exist, clearly, or we wouldn't know what the word is referring to. They just don't exist as physical life forms on this planet (that we know of). Everything "exists". The question is what does presuming to know that mean? "Exists", how? Because nothing can "not exist". Non-existence can't exist, by it's own design.

Exactly. There's the truth of the matter.

Such as a person who says leprechauns are real and exist wouldn't be entirely wrong on a technical level.

Actual existence of leprechauns in the environment would not be a requirement since the existence of these things can readily apply with something that exists only in that person's head.

 

[Audie]

Exactly. There's the truth of the matter.

Such as a person who says leprechauns are real and exist wouldn't be entirely wrong on a technical level.

Actual existence of leprechauns in the environment would not be a requirement since the existence of these things can readily apply with something that exists only in that person's head.

Kinda like the news we cant use
so typical of "philosophy ".

 

[PureX]

Existence is a perceived (conceived) state. I find it disconcerting that some of you really can't understand this. And even more so that you actively fight understanding it. I find that very bizarre.

 

[Follower7]

Existence is a perceived (conceived) state.

Absolutely!!!!