Pagan vs Christian

[Jainarayan]

It would be easy to understand when one accepts that the original Source of life is singular, and the existence of everything else is due to it alone.

That's the Hindu philosophy Viśiṣṭādvaita (vish-isht-ad-vyta), one of many philosophical schools. It holds that all diversity, all seeming individual existence, subsumes to a single whole entity. This entity is Brahman, or "God" that I referred to earlier. It's the philosophy I find myself drawn to, though I largely shy away from philosophy and concentrate on bhakti, i.e. devotion, and just trying to be a good boy.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It would be easy to understand when one accepts that the original Source of life is singular, and the existence of everything else is due to it alone.

That's the Hindu philosophy Viśiṣṭādvaita (vish-isht-ad-vyta), one of many philosophical schools. It holds that all diversity, all seeming individual existence, subsumes to a single whole entity. This entity is Brahman, or "God" that I referred to earlier. It's the philosophy I find myself drawn to, though I largely shy away from philosophy and concentrate on bhakti, i.e. devotion, and just trying to be a good boy.

And then you have us Advaita (nondual) jnani Vedantins (there are a few of us here) who love philosophy and thrive on such discourse. If the bhakti are the "good boys," then we are the "bad boys" that balance us out.

Yeah, Hinduism is pretty diverse...

And from my perspective, the "exisitence of everything else" is an appearance within this "Source of life." And thou are that (tat tvam asi).

 

[rocala]

While I understand what you're getting at. I am a blend of both, so I am confused by the dichotomy presented here.

I am very glad that you mentioned this. I think this is often the case for many of us and it can make labelling pretty tricky.

It seems to be expected by some, that the component parts of our beliefs come with a precise border around them. In truth, I find this not to be the case. Instead of a wall, we find intermediate strata. Shades of grey you could say, instead of black and white.

I myself am happy with this. It requires me to think and take responsibility for how I live by my principles.

 

[Link]

By my own. By the standards that determine what makes me happy, which were there to discover.

That's not what I said. I am happy. I am content.

Nor do I need to "prove" to anybody else that my has been and remains good by my standards. *I'm* satisfied with the course it has taken. Can you say the same?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا وَرَضُوا بِالْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَاطْمَأَنُّوا بِهَا وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا غَافِلُونَ | Indeed those who do not hope/desire to encounter Us and who are pleased with the life of this world and satisfied with it, and those who are oblivious of Our signs | Yunus : 7

I was talking about destruction of the soul. Those who place bets on the life of this world, miss out on the spiritual journey and in the next world, their bet is reaped in the negative.

Of course, I believe disbelief has consequences of injustice on earth as well. That is if you are blind to the truth about God and his proofs, you will most likely be on the wrong side in matters of conflict. If you believe in falsehood easily by misguiding leaders - Satan - will of course use in the wrong cause. This is why Quran also talks about disbelievers being a helper against God.

If God is not the king/ruler of the world, we fill in the vacuum with misguiding leaders. In the west there is Rothchild family who rules really everything, owns America in reality, and it's the west in oligarchy lead by soothsaying Jinn worshipers in my view whether they claim to be Jewish, Christian or whatever, their religion is more hidden and money is the power.

God's friends are bearing patiently and resisting, but blindness to God will make people blind to the battle between good and evil, and make people pawns in the Devil's hands.

Happiness for me is something of the next world, the injustice too great in this world to just be a happy person. Grief is more noble then apathy in this scenario.

That is not to say every non-Muslim is on the wrong side of conflict, but to a believer, you have to take side of the truthful and it's easy means to side with justice. This is why Messengers were risen, to bring mankind to rise with justice per the Quran.

The Kaba and it's rituals is for this purpose too.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I was talking about destruction of the soul.

That's for people willing to believe in such things to worry about. The immortal soul is a nefarious idea in the hands of Abrahamic religions. It is used to make you a hostage to an ideology, as there is no escaping punishment from the afterlife that it is claimed this soul will be sent to.

"To the philosophy of atheism belongs the credit of robbing death of its horror and its terror. It brought about the abolition of Hell." - Joseph Lewis

Those who place bets on the life of this world, miss out on the spiritual journey and in the next world

I'd say it's the other way around. As far as we know, there is no next world or spirits. An authentic spiritual journey can be had while alive, and it involves experiencing a connection to nature, which is associated with a warm feeling of belonging in the world associated with a sense of awe, wonder, gratitude, and mystery. What these religions have done is extracted the sacred from nature and displaced it to a ghost that neither respects man or nature, and which issues threats and commands from outside of nature. To me, that's a spiritual zero, and they do you a disservice redirecting your attention from here and now to there and then when there is no reason to believe that there will be a there or then for us.

Now read your words again in the light of that perspective. Who's missing out on the spiritual journey? I'd say it's the person who views life as a staging ground and lives it like he's waiting at a bus stop to be taken away to something better. Do you really enjoy being alive? Do you think you've made wise choices even if the god and afterlife you believe in don't exist?

Happiness for me is something of the next world, the injustice too great in this world to just be a happy person. Grief is more noble then apathy in this scenario.

Prolonging grief is not noble. In my opinion, your religious beliefs explain why you are unhappy where I am not, and why you call acceptance apathy. You've probably seen the aphorism about acceptance - the "wisdom to know the difference" stuff. I find no value actively and indefinitely grieving what's not in my power to help, but it does degrade life.

to a believer, you have to take side of the truthful

Your definition of truth is not the same as mine. Faith is never a path to truth as I use the word. One has to demonstrate the truth of an idea to call it knowledge or truth. Fervent unfalsifiable belief is not truth to me.

Quran also talks about disbelievers being a helper against God.

And critical thinkers often feel the same about holy books being an enemy to an authentic, spiritual existence - a "helper against" reason and happiness. Look at how different the two of us are. You seem agitated by life and its injustices, and focus on getting out of it in the favor of a god for a promised reward which promise need not be kept.

You would probably love for me to "wake up before it's too late." I wish the same for you, but I don't believe that's possible, just as my returning to theism is probably not possible. I tunneled out about four decades ago when I was more adaptable. It was only possible because I hadn't forsaken critical though and evaluating evidence, so, when the evidence that the religion was false became apparent, I recognized that and had an incentive to leave it, but it was very difficult. For about a year, I found myself praying to a god I no longer believed in: "Jesus, if you're really there, give me a sign." It was like quitting cigarettes. The addiction took a long time to dissipate to where it no longer nagged at me.

 

[Link]

That's for people willing to believe in such things to worry about. The immortal soul is a nefarious idea in the hands of Abrahamic religions. It is used to make you a hostage to an ideology, as there is no escaping punishment from the afterlife that it is claimed this soul will be sent to.

"To the philosophy of atheism belongs the credit of robbing death of its horror and its terror. It brought about the abolition of Hell." - Joseph Lewis

I'd say it's the other way around. As far as we know, there is no next world or spirits. An authentic spiritual journey can be had while alive, and it involves experiencing a connection to nature, which is associated with a warm feeling of belonging in the world associated with a sense of awe, wonder, gratitude, and mystery. What these religions have done is extracted the sacred from nature and displaced it to a ghost that neither respects man or nature, and which issues threats and commands from outside of nature. To me, that's a spiritual zero, and they do you a disservice redirecting your attention from here and now to there and then when there is no reason to believe that there will be a there or then for us.

Now read your words again in the light of that perspective. Who's missing out on the spiritual journey? I'd say it's the person who views life as a staging ground and lives it like he's waiting at a bus stop to be taken away to something better. Do you really enjoy being alive? Do you think you've made wise choices even if the god and afterlife you believe in don't exist?

Prolonging grief is not noble. In my opinion, your religious beliefs explain why you are unhappy where I am not, and why you call acceptance apathy. You've probably seen the aphorism about acceptance - the "wisdom to know the difference" stuff. I find no value actively and indefinitely grieving what's not in my power to help, but it does degrade life.

Your definition of truth is not the same as mine. Faith is never a path to truth as I use the word. One has to demonstrate the truth of an idea to call it knowledge or truth. Fervent unfalsifiable belief is not truth to me.

And critical thinkers often feel the same about holy books being an enemy to an authentic, spiritual existence - a "helper against" reason and happiness. Look at how different the two of us are. You seem agitated by life and its injustices, and focus on getting out of it in the favor of a god for a promised reward which promise need not be kept.

You would probably love for me to "wake up before it's too late." I wish the same for you, but I don't believe that's possible, just as my returning to theism is probably not possible. I tunneled out about four decades ago when I was more adaptable. It was only possible because I hadn't forsaken critical though and evaluating evidence, so, when the evidence that the religion was false became apparent, I recognized that and had an incentive to leave it, but it was very difficult. For about a year, I found myself praying to a god I no longer believed in: "Jesus, if you're really there, give me a sign." It was like quitting cigarettes. The addiction took a long time to dissipate to where it no longer nagged at me.

Everything you said, I can see from your perspective. However, why do you believe it's not in your power to help? To me this an excuse of apathy. If you do everything you can and fail, still, if you did everything everyone should do, and leave a message of that, then it's better then not trying. To simply give up and say I can't do anything to me is wrong.

If everyone says they can't change the situation, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My plan: Books, write plenty of books. But I want to graduate, establish myself and put some funding into the books I want publish from my own money. This is why I'm delaying publishing my books.

 

[Alien826]

And the believers of other religions say the very same about their gods.

Isn't it weird how so many can be so wrong and just one be so right?

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my then boss (in the US Bible Belt, fyi). At the end of a reasonably polite discussion of religion I attempted to sum up ...

Me: So, what you are saying is that I am entitled to my opinion but I am wrong?
Him: Yes.

 

[Link]

Do you really enjoy being alive? Do you think you've made wise choices even if the god and afterlife you believe in don't exist?

No and betting both ways, never works. You have to pick between life of this world or next. Those who want this world, will have nothing of the next. And those who desire next, will get it. A person might say, what about desiring both. From my experience you truly believe in one over the other. People who want both really want this world and to deceive themselves about wanting next. Those who desire next will sacrifice this world for it.

I don't believe it's possible to have empathy, believe in hell-fire and see the amount of humans going to it including people you meet, and be happy. It's not possible. But I do laugh, smile, cope. Of course, in the next world, that grief will be removed and people will heal through being focused on the pleasures of God's proximity and paradise. In this world, while there is concern and you can change the situation, it's a constant worry and grief. I don't think it's possible for me to be happy in this world with belief in hell unless somehow majority of mankind is saved which is possible with the return of the Mahdi (a) and Isa (a).

What makes matters worse for me, I love a person I believe is going to hell. I can't save her, and I won't try to push religion on her because I know that won't bring her closer to the truth.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

why do you believe it's not in your power to help?

I didn't say I have no power to be of help, but that help will be local and on a small scale. I contribute to local animal shelters and mentor bridge. We gave the furniture we replaced to our neighbors rather than selling it. And I like to "overtip." It's all local.

I don't worry about the parts of the world that I can't impact appreciably and which don't impact me much, which is most of the news.

If you do everything you can and fail, still, if you did everything everyone should do, and leave a message of that, then it's better then not trying.

Agreed. although we might differ about when we've correctly determined that we can't help.

To simply give up and say I can't do anything to me is wrong.

I have a background in hospice. We used to hear that a lot from people who thought that switching from care intended to preserve life or function to comfort care was giving up. Recognizing when additional therapy is futile and may actually increase discomfort or hasten death with no chance of benefit is a valuable skill that makes lives better including those of the survivors, but only those who can see further than the ones who cry, "Do something! Anything!"

You have to pick between life of this world or next.

I "choose" life now and if there's an afterlife, I'll "choose" that afterlife next.

Those who want this world, will have nothing of the next

Not because you say so. Your beliefs don't limit my options or reality.

those who desire next, will get it.

Probably not. The trick is to not waste the only life that we know of. You get one bite at the apple, so take a big one. I chose love, beauty, music, books, restaurants, movies, art, and travel. I tasted the military, office work, and organized religion, and walked away from them all. I tasted academia and got a good formal education as well as training in critical thinking and learning independently, which have facilitated a better life for me.

These are the things I value, not sermons or prayers, nor studying holy books, nor limiting myself with irrational rules. And I look back at my life with satisfaction, pleased with the choices I made and the life they allowed me to discover. As far as we know, that's all there is. And do you know what? It's been enough. Can you say the same?

What makes matters worse for me, I love a person I believe is going to hell.

Sorry to hear that, but you know who to blame for saddling you with that, don't you? I have no such cross to bear. This is from atheist firebrand Pat Condell:

"It must be quite galling for religious people to see atheists like me going about their business without a shred of guilt or self-loathing, and not in the least inclined to pray or to do penance of any kind, and not in the slightest bit worried about any form of eternal punishment. I have to admit if I was religious, I'd probably think to myself: "How come I've got all this weight on my shoulders while these bums are getting a free ride?"

They say that the truth will set you free.

 

[Link]

It's good to see people helping people.

I hear where your coming from and it's empathy that you want me to enjoy life and not worry/grieve. Of course, when I was a deist/neopagan type person, I convinced myself everyone was going to paradise and I was more happy. But some events happened with uncles being tortured (and my father way before that was too), and I wanted hell to exist again.

It's hard desire wise. I want hell to exist but don't want most people going to it. I don't want everyone that is going to hell to go to hell, but I certainly want people who tortured my father and uncles to go to hell.

But I think Quran has augmented in me to the point of no return. I may be able to delude myself that it's not from God but I doubt I can anymore.

I use to write a lot against the concept of hell especially with other theists. I use to argue against Christians on their forum and Shiite Muslims to another forum.

Even if I wanted it to not exist now, I can't do away with the depth of the arguments for it and my sense of justice.

It's been ongoing argument/debate in me though between the two positions for a long period of my life.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's the first of the Ten Commandments, a tenet Christians adhere to above anything else. It's a mortal sin when done deliberately (venial if done out of ignorance or weakness). It's not considered in Christianity to be location or person specific.

It’s okay if it’s a mortal sin because you can always petition another God to disregard.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

A unified divine means a unified moral code. A fractured divine means a contradictory and unstable moral code. How does it make sense to follow the ethics of the Goddess of Love on Tuesday, and then turn around on Wednesday and abide by the ethics of the God of War?

How does it work with just one God with conflicting messages?

 

[Will Due]

Biological, evolutionary religion is the "scaffolding" for the arrival of revealed religion.

Since revealed religion has arrived, what is the main thing revealed about true religion that will remain and endure when the scaffolding is removed?

 

[danieldemol]

Since revealed religion has arrived

It has? So far I've only encountered man made religions in my view.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Since revealed religion has arrived, what is the main thing revealed about true religion that will remain and endure when the scaffolding is removed?

Me.

 

[1213]

Why?

For example because of the contradictions that comes from worshiping pluralistically. But, to give more accurate answer, I think I would need an example what the person is actually worshiping.

 

[SalixIncendium]

For example because of the contradictions that comes from worshiping pluralistically. But, to give more accurate answer, I think I would need an example what the person is actually worshiping.

Why would there be contradictions? There are those bhaktis in Hinduism that worship Jesus alongside their own gods, whether they be Vishnu, Krishna, Shiva, etc. Let's use this as an example.

 

[1213]

Why would there be contradictions? There are those bhaktis in Hinduism that worship Jesus alongside their own gods, whether they be Vishnu, Krishna, Shiva, etc. Let's use this as an example.

First of all, why would they worship Jesus? Secondly, Jesus tells there is only one true God, why would they worship any other than Him? If they would do so, it would be in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus.

 

[SalixIncendium]

First of all, why would they worship Jesus?

They worship him as an avatar...and incarnation of God.

Secondly, Jesus tells there is only one true God, why would they worship any other than Him? If they would do so, it would be in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus.

Where does Jesus say this?

 

[1213]

They worship him as an avatar...and incarnation of God.

Why?

Where does Jesus say this?

Jesus answered, "The greatest is, 'Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one: you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
Mark 12:29-30
How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascend-ing to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28