Palestianian atheist arrested

[kai]

can i ask you the same thing Lava?

Well i was just wondering how serious Blasphemy should be taken by Muslims if its not dealt with in the Quran or Hadith?


And if it isnt, what interest would a secular organisation like Fatah have in penalising such a thing?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

you can insult, attack and slander Islam, Islamic history and Islamic figures (even living figures) anywhere in Western nations. in China they turn mosques into stable for pigs. no minarets in Swiss. Azan disturbs Europeans. you might even get Nobel Prize for insulting anything related to Islam and Muslims. you'd be applauded by crowds if you use names of Prophets in a humiliating way in your so-called art. so basically in Western nations there is complete and supported freedom against Islam.

Yes but you can insult atheists in Western nations too, it happens all the time, and you know this. It's not like Muslim bloggers are being imprisoned for insulting Charles Darwin or spreading lies about evolution or atheism. So, it's really not "freedom against Islam". It's just "freedom".

Ask yourself this question: why has it not become fashionable in the West in recent years to deliberately draw cartoons which may offend Hindus? Because insane Hindu fanatics have not threatened the critics of Hinduism with death and violence, which only turns those critics into free speech martyrs and creates a huge sensation.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Ok I see your PoV and can understand. The problem is that I think he left as the Prophet was a "rapist". That claim in itself is in substantiated and unnecessarily inflammatory.

I know you're talking to Meow Mix but I wanted to chime in ... (sorry ) ... putting aside the issue of punishment, I totally agree you shouldn't say something like that without providing an argument to back it up (even a wrong argument).

 

[Mr Spinkles]

if there could be a place where noone should insult Islam, IMO it has to be Islamic nations, naturally.

In fact, there are many places in the U.S. where it naturally occurs that you cannot say deliberately inflammatory (insulting) things about Islam. This forum is one of those places, there are rules about inflammatory remarks. This arises naturally because people get together and decide that's the kind of forum we want. But other people can make other forums and we will not imprison them or accuse them of dirtying "our" home. That's their home.

Mosques and other private property are another obvious "safe" place for Islam. It must be pretty safe out in public, too, because I see Muslim people all the time in public where I live and I have never heard a comment like "Muhammad was a rapist". Of course that would be an incredibly rude thing to say in general and most people do not have this on their mind to begin with.

I would be very surprised to see a statement like "Muhammad was a rapist" come from any high political official, or employer, or newspaper, or TV show. Internet blogs are unique, they are sort of like the "Wild West" of free speech where everything that can be said is said, somewhere.

Arguably, the "safe" and inoffensive environment for Islam in a place like Palestine are not natural, because there is unnatural government intervention enforcing it, instead of evolving based on people's choices.

 

[kai]

"When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme." [Qur'an 4:140]
"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you." [Qur'an 28: 55]

"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [Qur'an 7:199]

"Have patience with what they say, and leaves them with noble (dignity)." [Qur'an 73:10]

"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [Qur'an 25:63]

"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [Qur'an 16: 128]

". . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them." [Qur'an 9:47]


so what gives?

 

[kai]

And This

There is no punishment in Islam for blasphemy. No such punishment is prescribed in the Holy Qur’an, or in any of the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad(saw). Islam promotes the need for respect of all religions for the sake of peace in society, but it does not set out any punishment for blasphemy despite the offence it may cause people of faith.

We have evidence in the traditions of the Holy Prophet(saw) where Abdullah bin Ubayyee (Chief of the hypocrites) continuously abused the Prophet(saw), and opposed him severely in Madinah.
When he passed away, the Prophet(saw) stood to offer his funeral prayers but was asked by one of his companions, “O Allah's Apostle! Do you offer the prayer for this man although he said so-and-so on such-and-such-a day?” and “that he is a hypocrite!”.
The Prophet(saw) ignored his statements and continued to offer the funeral prayers of the dead man. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 192)

The above example shows that the Prophet(saw) never ordered any punishment for anyone who insulted or abused him or God; on the contrary he went to pray for them that they be guided aright. Much has been written on this subject, for further details, please see the book ‘Murder in the Name of Allah’.
If somebody uses foul language against any holy person or teaching, Islam advises to keep away from such people as The Holy Qur’an says,

And when you see those who trifle with our signs then turn thou away from them until then engage in a discourse other than that and if Satan cause thee to forget then sit not, after recollection, with the unjust people.

(Ch.6: V.69)

Islamic FAQ - Islam

and i know that is an ammadi site but the Quran is the Quran.



I thought that Islam recognizes the right of freedom of conscience and freedom of belief and that one's religious belief is answerable only to God . That no man has the right to punish another for his choice of belief. There is absolutely no compulsion whatsoever in Islam and no punishment of any kind permitted in the Holy Quran for apostasy.


Am i mistaken ?

 

[.lava]

I thought that Islam recognizes the right of freedom of conscience and freedom of belief and that one's religious belief is answerable only to God . That no man has the right to punish another for his choice of belief. There is absolutely no compulsion whatsoever in Islam and no punishment of any kind permitted in the Holy Quran for apostasy.


Am i mistaken ?

no, you're not mistaken. i did a little search and i could not find any punishment for this. there are many verses about mockery and how what people mock would surrend them. there is one verse about social relationships and i think you might remember that one. it explains that a Muslim should leave conversation with people in case they mock God and when they stop mockery he could sit back with them again. i am unsure how it works with this kind of attacks though. if practice of this verse was suppose to be extended to a greater scale then the best thing to do is to ignore this guy altogether

.

 

[Sahar]

You are taking it to the extreme, but that is a natural progression from thought control because you have to back it up with a big stick.

Sahar you are a very intelligent woman and by now you must have read his blog , do you think that he should be arrested and punished for what he has written?


do you not consider punishment for being critical of Islam a method of compulsion ? to arrest non believers and imprison them certainly sends out a message its better to stay silent and pretend to be a Muslim and yet that is also a great sin is it not.

Pretend to be a Muslim? :sarcastic So you can't be a non Muslim except by insulting our prophet and religion? Nice!!

Yes, it's better to stay silent when you insult the sacred figures not just of Islam but of any religion. Indeed it sends out a message to be better silent in that case the same way France, Belgium or Germany sends a message to holocaust deniers, the same way Canada, UK or Australia sends a message to hate groups. Or better the same way Germany or some other Western countries sends a message to blasphemers.
No need to get melodramatic when it comes to Muslims!!

 

[kai]

no, you're not mistaken. i did a little search and i could not find any punishment for this. there are many verses about mockery and how what people mock would surrend them. there is one verse about social relationships and i think you might remember that one. it explains that a Muslim should leave conversation with people in case they mock God and when they stop mockery he could sit back with them again. i am unsure how it works with this kind of attacks though. if practice of this verse was suppose to be extended to a greater scale then the best thing to do is to ignore this guy altogether

.

yes and in fact if the Palestinian Authority did ignore it none of us would be discussing it.

It seems to me that people feel the need to invent these punishments etc in the misguided belief that God and his Prophet somehow need their protection.

 

[kai]

Pretend to be a Muslim? :sarcastic So you can't be a non Muslim except by insulting our prophet and religion? Nice!! Yes you can i am a non Muslim and i try not to insult the prophet but some people are easier to insult than others. The prophet himself didnt seem to feel the need to punish people that insulted him.


Maybe you cant be a skeptic without insulting the prophet or Islam, skepticism itself or the expression of it is insulting --No, and the guy is apostate thats insulting too isnt it.

Yes, it's better to stay silent when you insult the sacred figures not just of Islam but of any religion. Indeed it sends out a message to be better silent in that case the same way France, Belgium or Germany sends a message to holocaust deniers, the same way Canada, UK or Australia sends a message to hate groups. Or better the same way Germany or some other Western countries sends a message to blasphemers.
No need to get melodramatic when it comes to Muslims!!

I am sure we can discuss the laws of certain countries about holocaust denial or hate speech when we have done with this one if you like?

But in the mean time where are Muslims getting the idea they have to subject people to punishment for it? not the Quran or Hadith unless i am wrong about that? maybe Fatah have taken it upon themselves?

 

[.lava]

yes and in fact if the Palestinian Authority did ignore it none of us would be discussing it.

It seems to me that people feel the need to invent these punishments etc in the misguided belief that God and his Prophet somehow need their protection.

of course they don't need protection. this is a social issue and what matters is how this approaches effect public. i would have to ask about this one. to me personally, it is nothing better than dirt but i'll obey verses. i'll give you that

.

 

[.lava]

Pretend to be a Muslim? :sarcastic So you can't be a non Muslim except by insulting our prophet and religion? Nice!!

Yes, it's better to stay silent when you insult the sacred figures not just of Islam but of any religion. Indeed it sends out a message to be better silent in that case the same way France, Belgium or Germany sends a message to holocaust deniers, the same way Canada, UK or Australia sends a message to hate groups. Or better the same way Germany or some other Western countries sends a message to blasphemers.
No need to get melodramatic when it comes to Muslims!!

yes, it is the trend in the world today. as if their societies were perfect they are trying to better ours. their governments commit the worst crimes and it continues for years and years but nowhere we could see the effort they give to change us to change their own evil ways. it is really funny but i don't know if should laugh at them or cry for them

.

 

[Sahar]

I am sure we can discuss the laws of certain countries about holocaust denial or hate speech when we have done with this one if you like?

No. I am pointing out how freedom of speech has limits in the different parts of the world including the "civilized" world. And I am just hoping if you and others can save us the rubbish lectures about freedom and start to clean your own houses first instead of attacking Islam and Muslims.

But in the mean time where are Muslims getting the idea they have to subject people to punishment for it? not the Quran or Hadith unless i am wrong about that? maybe Fatah have taken it upon themselves?

It's the opinion of the Muslim scholars but I'll have to search and find a good link. Maybe you have links for us?

 

[Kerr]

no, you're not mistaken. i did a little search and i could not find any punishment for this. there are many verses about mockery and how what people mock would surrend them. there is one verse about social relationships and i think you might remember that one. it explains that a Muslim should leave conversation with people in case they mock God and when they stop mockery he could sit back with them again. i am unsure how it works with this kind of attacks though. if practice of this verse was suppose to be extended to a greater scale then the best thing to do is to ignore this guy altogether

.

I actually find that a more reasonable response then jailing him. Thanks for showing that Islam in itself is not as intolerant as the guy in the blog claimed (think he claimed it, but I didn´t read that much since it just seemed to be the same crap over again).

 

[.lava]

I actually find that a more reasonable response then jailing him. Thanks for showing that Islam in itself is not as intolerant as the guy in the blog claimed (think he claimed it, but I didn´t read that much since it just seemed to be the same crap over again).

as a response maybe it is OK. but it might not be the best as an act. i personally would not wish any Muslim to become murderer because of lies and slanders of this guy. i wrote what i think before. jailing him might be protecting him from getting killed and it also protect those who's weak and emotional enough to harm him. Palestinian authority might be trying to accomplish this. matter of fact, if Palestian authority did not jail him and in case he was killed then we would see a few posters here whining about it. now they complaint about he is being jailed. if he was dead, they would be complaining about how and why Palestinian authority did not interfere with the situation. it seems no matter what Muslims do, there would something to complaint about thanks to haters of Islam. i don't mean you, of course dear Kerr

.

 

[kai]

yes, it is the trend in the world today. as if their societies were perfect they are trying to better ours. their governments commit the worst crimes and it continues for years and years but nowhere we could see the effort they give to change us to change their own evil ways. it is really funny but i don't know if should laugh at them or cry for them

.

Its the trend of people today Lava freedom is infectious, in our countries we instigate change all the time we try to better our society in lots of different ways.Most of us look inwards before we look outwards.

 

[kai]

No. I am pointing out how freedom of speech has limits in the different parts of the world including the "civilized" world. And I am just hoping if you and others can save us the rubbish lectures about freedom and start to clean your own houses first instead of attacking Islam and Muslims.

I am not attacking anybody, just asking questions, Thats how one learns , i just wanted to know what the justification was for imprisoning and punishing this man i found it interesting that Fatah a secular organisation would charge someone with insulting the divine essence


It's the opinion of the Muslim scholars but I'll have to search and find a good link. Maybe you have links for us?

Hey i don't know one Muslim scholar from another but i thought they all referred to Quran and Hadith when making judgements?

 

[kai]

as a response maybe it is OK. but it might not be the best as an act. i personally would not wish any Muslim to become murderer because of lies and slanders of this guy. i wrote what i think before. jailing him might be protecting him from getting killed and it also protect those who's weak and emotional enough to harm him. Palestinian authority might be trying to accomplish this. matter of fact, if Palestian authority did not jail him and in case he was killed then we would see a few posters here whining about it. now they complaint about he is being jailed. if he was dead, they would be complaining about how and why Palestinian authority did not interfere with the situation. it seems no matter what Muslims do, there would something to complaint about thanks to haters of Islam. i don't mean you, of course dear Kerr

.

Lava how can you hate Islam ? its not a person , to do so would be silly ,and its not Islams fault if scholars or anyone else interprets the Quran and Hadith to inflict violence on others is it? Thats men ( uslually not women) that do that not Islam.

 

[.lava]

Its the trend of people today Lava freedom is infectious, in our countries we instigate change all the time we try to better our society in lots of different ways.

Kai, we've been living in a society where there is diversity for ages. comparing to our culture Europe is a little baby on its way to freedom for diversity and a failure. because they could not handle diversity and they look for assimilating 'strangers' instead accepting them as they are, like we did for centuries. while we have churches that's protected, restored and used, Europe still argue about minarets and outfit of Muslims. there are nice things in Western societies but socially they are not better at all. on the contrary. all their ideas of freedom and democracy is only written, spoken & preached but nevel trully practiced and lived. we are not blind to this fact.

i don't consider becoming a slave to your ego to be freedom. that's what Western definition of freedom invites people to, the exact opposite of what a Muslim wishes to do if you ask me. what i meant by trend that's current is part of war on Islam. they make Muslims look like the trouble of entire world. trend is to attack Islam and find ways to belittle Muslims, their path and their way of life. i thought i should mention this clearly once more so that you would not think i agree with you. it is not freedom that we learn from West. it is how to abuse freedom we're learning and we look for humane ways to deal with it but that's not to say we'd become like you. of course we would deal with abusive people in a humane manner as we are commanded to do so but we would not adopt that abusive behavior to deal with it because it is not a treasure. the treasure is to deal with it humanely while refusing to act in the same manner that's shallow, inhumane and out come of vices, not virtues. and someone else's vice shall turn into our virtue as we live through this experience. that's the essence of being Islam; the alchemy of soul, real freedom of an individual; independency from temptation of others

.

 

[.lava]

Lava how can you hate Islam ? its not a person , to do so would be silly ,and its not Islams fault if scholars or anyone else interprets the Quran and Hadith to inflict violence on others is it? Thats men ( uslually not women) that do that not Islam.

haha well that's true. though i am not just referring to doings of people. obviously some people hate the idea of submission to a creator because they do not believe in a creator. faith bothers them. but yes, you are right. bad representation and ignorance of men make this dislike a lot easier and reasonable

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