Palestianian atheist arrested

[kai]

You know theres variuos arguments concerning the consumation of the marriage so its a contensious issue. and i am sure that has been debated before on RF but theres probably room for another thread on it.

The discussion point here is the arrest of someone who insults Muslims because as i think we all well know, to call the Prophet a rapist will be considered an insult. so what are we debating here?

is an insult a crime ?

when does an insult become a crime?



In my country it may be considered incitement to religious hatred and even inciting violence ( which i think it probably would) and would then be seen as breaking the law. So i have a feeling that he wouldn't have got away with this in the UK either.



Check out the UK Religious hatred law


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3873323.stm





It seems i was wrong see here:


The first defeat, by 288 votes to 278, was aimed at ensuring the new laws would not affect the current racial hatred laws. The second vote, which the government lost by 283 votes to 282, said the law should only criminalise "threatening" behaviour, not things which were just "abusive and insulting". It also means people can only be prosecuted if they intend to stir up hatred - not if they are merely "reckless".

(my underlining)








Oh and lets keep it civil please!

 

[Sahar]

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

No one is jailed for justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position in the U.S. Please, give an example of one political prisoner in the U.S. who was jailed because he/she expressed opinions justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position.

There are public figures who are not jailed for supporting such opinions, like Noam Chomsky, or Norman Finkelstein. Here's a video of Finkelstein defending Hezbollah: Norman G. Finkelstein » In Defense of Hezbollah

Finkelstein has not been imprisoned by the U.S. for defending Hezbollah and he never will be, because it's not a crime.

Let me give you a flavor of what you can say in the U.S. without going to prison:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrations happen sometimes especially in larger cities. As with any demonstration, or any time emotions are running high, things are not always "respectful" sometimes people say very controversial things. You can check out the news reports yourself or look at lots of YouTube videos of the protests. At one demonstration in Fort Lauderdale, Florida a Muslim woman shouted that the Jews should "Go back to the oven," and so on, and one person held a sign saying "Nuke Israel". I think that kind of behavior is the exception to the rule, even the organizers of that demonstration said they didn't approve of that kind of talk. That was only one woman, my point is she did not go to jail for saying those things. At other demonstrations in the U.S. there have been signs like "Israel is a racist state", the U.S. and Israel are terrorists / Nazis, "Victory to Hizballah", etc.

You do not go to jail for saying such things in the U.S. You also do not face any criminal penalty whatsoever for denying the Holocaust or saying hate speech or racist speech in the U.S. A small group of white supremacists / Nazis marched through my university once, to protest immigration. Again, no one was imprisoned or faced any criminal prosecution because this is not a crime. It's a despicable thing to do, and everyone condemns and despises these small groups of Nazis, but it's not a crime.

There is another group of right-wing Christian radicals led by a man named Fred Phelps. This is a small group that holds signs saying "God hates ****" and other vicious insults against gays. They also go just outside the funerals of dead American soldiers, and hold signs saying "God loves dead American soldiers" and "Thank God for I.E.D.s" because apparently gays are tolerated in the U.S. so God rightly punishes us by killing American soldiers abroad. Even this extremely vicious kind of speech, while condemned by everyone, is not criminal. None of those people are jailed for celebrating dead U.S. soldiers.

 

[kai]

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

People are banned from entering the UK for:

"Considered to be engaging in unacceptable behaviour by seeking to foment, justify or glorify terrorist violence in furtherance of particular beliefs and fostering hatred that might lead to inter-community violence"


List of individuals banned from entering the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jarofthoughts]

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

You are mistaken. We have had several cases where holocaust deniers , racists and blasphemers have held speeches or published material online or elsewhere. They are usually shunned by the public or are met with peaceful demonstrations to counter their view, which, in turn, is the right of their opponents.

But I have heard of NO incident where any of these have been a subject to imprisonment or violence.

We even had a Muslim on a gathering in Oslo about a year ago who blatantly said that in a Muslim country ruled by Sharia law homosexuals would be stoned to death. He got a lot of verbal flak from the Muslim community as well as from the public in general, but as far as I know he has not been the victim of violence, nor has he been put in jail.

The law is very clear on this point: As long as you don't incite violence you can speak freely.
You are for instance free to say things like "Homosexuality is a sin and they will burn in hell for their sins" but once you say things like "Homosexuals are an abomination and we must go out and stone them to death" you've crossed a line. And of course, if you actually go out and commit violence we're talking about a completely different beast altogether.

Do you see the difference?

PS: Norway doesn't currently have a law against blasphemy nor is it likely to get one.

 

[Starsoul]

No one is jailed for justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position in the U.S. Please, give an example of one political prisoner in the U.S. who was jailed because he/she expressed opinions justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position.

There are public figures who are not jailed for supporting such opinions, like Noam Chomsky, or Norman Finkelstein. Here's a video of Finkelstein defending Hezbollah: Norman G. Finkelstein » In Defense of Hezbollah

Finkelstein has not been imprisoned by the U.S. for defending Hezbollah and he never will be, because it's not a crime.

.

Thats because Finklestein is a Jew. Prove to me that the US does not protect the Jews. It is in the oath of the us department of the state that 'we protect and support the rights and interests of the state of israel."

And tell me why you do not have any example of a muslim engaging in such behavior and being well known like this? They are caught in their steps much before they get that kind of publicity, and silenced for the audacity in exchange of their citizen rights, or they are just deported without any noise being created over it.

I know many who have been arrested, or kicked out of their posts.

General McChrystal is a recent example. Excercising HIS right of freedom of speech cost him his whole career.

 

[Starsoul]

But I have heard of NO incident where any of these have been a subject to imprisonment or violence.

PS: Norway doesn't currently have a law against blasphemy nor is it likely to get one.

You haven't because it is not publicized, period.

If norway doesnt have a law against blasphemy, it means it protects, encourages and supports blashphemy , talk about glorifying lack of morals and ethics.

The incident where people of the whole world ,majorly Norway, Dutch and the Denmark enthusiastically engaged in caricaturizing the respect figures of the muslims, speaks volumes of the pungent putrefactive intellect they choose to celebrate their rights of freedom with; it is FUN for them when they indulge in disrespect, it is refreshing for them when a huge segment of a society is upset at their imbecility, and they derive a sense of pleasure when they exercize that right Only against Muslims.

Hate is their religion, Immorality their lifestyle, and satire their spirit.

They stand united over their such Kind, benevolent and meritorious projection of freedom of ill speech.

It is of utmost wonder if they'd ever speak for the rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world, their sense of God keeps them occupied with devicing newer ways to insult only.

I have no respect for such people, and though they do not believe in God, they don't know how they make the believers even more thankful for the concept of eternal misery. Laugh and you shall laugh only little.

 

[jarofthoughts]

You haven't because it is not publicized, period.

If norway doesnt have a law against blasphemy, it means it protects, encourages and supports blashphemy , talk about glorifying lack of morals and ethics.

The incident where people of the whole world ,majorly Norway, Dutch and the Denmark enthusiastically engaged in caricaturizing the respect figures of the muslims, speaks volumes of the pungent putrefactive intellect they choose to celebrate their rights of freedom with; it is FUN for them when they indulge in disrespect, it is refreshing for them when a huge segment of a society is upset at their imbecility, and they derive a sense of pleasure when they exercize that right Only against Muslims.

Hate is their religion, Immorality their lifestyle, and satire their spirit.

They stand united over their such Kind, benevolent and meritorious projection of freedom of ill speech.

It is of utmost wonder if they'd ever speak for the rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world, their sense of God keeps them occupied with devicing newer ways to insult only.

I have no respect for such people, and though they do not believe in God, they don't know how they make the believers even more thankful for the concept of eternal misery. Laugh and you shall laugh only little.

Wow... That is the most ignorant collection of nonsense I've seen gathered in one place for a long time.

I'm not even sure if I should dignify that with an answer or just leave it stating that I feel really really sorry for you.

 

[Starsoul]

Wow... That is the most ignorant collection of nonsense I've seen gathered in one place for a long time.

I'm not even sure if I should dignify that with an answer or just leave it stating that I feel really really sorry for you.

Thanks for that, Haha you just proved it right there. Too bad, i dont expect any dignified response from you , I doubt you've ever encountered anything as close to as dignity, don't push yourself too much.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Thanks for that, Haha you just proved it right there. Too bad, i dont expect any dignified response from you , I doubt you've ever encountered anything as close to as dignity, don't push yourself too much.

He he.. Alright.
You really want to do this?

Fair enough.
I'll compare countries with you.

First off, in which country do you live that is so wonderfully moral and successful?

 

[.lava]

And what exactly is "my place," .lava?
Is this your way of dodging yet another question?
You know when you evade questions, the obvious conclusion is that you realize that answering them will reveal the flaws in your position, right?

i don't care where your place is. i am just telling you it is not between me and another Muslim. i think it is better to know it than being reminded each time you try to come between us.

there is no new question and it is definetely your dream to think that way

.

 

[.lava]

Don't ever tell me what to do. I'm just debating the issue, which is what we're supposed to be here to do. Apparently you feel you can't disagree with someone without ill will? That's weird.

debate your thoughts as you like. who give you right to play 'arbitrator' between two people specially when those two are not fine with it? know your place, if not each time i would make sure you crash a wall and remind you you're not belong between us

.

 

[Sahar]

No one is jailed for justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position in the U.S. Please, give an example of one political prisoner in the U.S. who was jailed because he/she expressed opinions justifying the Hamas or Hezbollah position.

Ok, maybe who are jailed those who actually provide material support for Hamas. But for example, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is banned from entering the US and the UK for justifying Hamas actions which are recognized as terrorist acts there. And based on this, I don't think you can do it safely there without being sued.

There are public figures who are not jailed for supporting such opinions, like Noam Chomsky, or Norman Finkelstein. Here's a video of Finkelstein defending Hezbollah: Norman G. Finkelstein » In Defense of Hezbollah

Both of them are Jews, right?

Finkelstein has not been imprisoned by the U.S. for defending Hezbollah and he never will be, because it's not a crime.

But if you came to the details, I think it would constitute a problem.

Let me give you a flavor of what you can say in the U.S. without going to prison:

Pro-Palestinian demonstrations happen sometimes especially in larger cities. As with any demonstration, or any time emotions are running high, things are not always "respectful" sometimes people say very controversial things. You can check out the news reports yourself or look at lots of YouTube videos of the protests. At one demonstration in Fort Lauderdale, Florida a Muslim woman shouted that the Jews should "Go back to the oven," and so on, and one person held a sign saying "Nuke Israel". I think that kind of behavior is the exception to the rule, even the organizers of that demonstration said they didn't approve of that kind of talk. That was only one woman, my point is she did not go to jail for saying those things. At other demonstrations in the U.S. there have been signs like "Israel is a racist state", the U.S. and Israel are terrorists / Nazis, "Victory to Hizballah", etc.

You do not go to jail for saying such things in the U.S. You also do not face any criminal penalty whatsoever for denying the Holocaust or saying hate speech or racist speech in the U.S. A small group of white supremacists / Nazis marched through my university once, to protest immigration. Again, no one was imprisoned or faced any criminal prosecution because this is not a crime. It's a despicable thing to do, and everyone condemns and despises these small groups of Nazis, but it's not a crime.

There is another group of right-wing Christian radicals led by a man named Fred Phelps. This is a small group that holds signs saying "God hates ****" and other vicious insults against gays. They also go just outside the funerals of dead American soldiers, and hold signs saying "God loves dead American soldiers" and "Thank God for I.E.D.s" because apparently gays are tolerated in the U.S. so God rightly punishes us by killing American soldiers abroad. Even this extremely vicious kind of speech, while condemned by everyone, is not criminal. None of those people are jailed for celebrating dead U.S. soldiers.

OK, but In Canada, UK and other European countries...etc, you might be sued and imprisoned and if you are an outsider banned from entering the country.
And we all know that holocaust deniers are not tolerated in many European countries.

 

[Starsoul]

.
And we all know that holocaust deniers are not tolerated in many European countries.

Apart from that, even facebook supports freedom of speech when its racist and anti -religion, and they delete/ ban forever the users who make the holocaust denial/anti-jew pages.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Apart from that, even facebook supports freedom of speech when its racist and anti -religion, and they delete/ ban forever the users who make the holocaust denial/anti-jew pages.

Still waiting for you to answer my question though...

He he.. Alright.
You really want to do this?

Fair enough.
I'll compare countries with you.

First off, in which country do you live that is so wonderfully moral and successful?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hey Sahar,

Again I don't want to get into the pointless debate about whether or not the West is superior to Muslim countries, we both know there are free speech problems and disputes everywhere. I'm not saying free speech is perfect I just thought your characterization was inaccurate and I want to respect the facts.

Ok, maybe who are jailed those who actually provide material support for Hamas.

I believe you can be jailed for giving money to Hamas, yes.

But for example, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is banned from entering the US and the UK for justifying Hamas actions which are recognized as terrorist acts there. And based on this, I don't think you can do it safely there without being sued.

Okay thanks for that example, according to news reports that decision was controversial in the UK and he eventually was accepted in France for medical treatment. I'm not sure why he was denied a visa to the U.S., if it was because of his statements then I agree this is probably a free speech issue. From what I hear it has been even more difficult to be allowed in to the U.S. since the Sept. 11 attacks.

But you can't get sued for saying things like you believe suicide bombings against Israelis are Islamically justified, etc. in the U.S.

Both of them are Jews, right?

They are ethnically Jewish but they are not religious, yes ... is this relevant?

But if you came to the details, I think it would constitute a problem.

Oh he is condemned all over by supporters of Israel. Some very pro-Israel academics signed a petition, if I remember correctly, to ask Finkelstein's university to fire him, though this attempt failed.

The only point I'm making is that you are certainly not going to face any criminal penalty, such as prison, for expressing these views in the U.S. There are a lot of political groups, such as the American Civil Liberties Union, who go around making sure that everyone's speech is protected even from non-government interference.

OK, but In Canada, UK and other European countries...etc, you might be sued and imprisoned and if you are an outsider banned from entering the country.
And we all know that holocaust deniers are not tolerated in many European countries.

I honestly don't know about those countries. You're right that Holocaust denial is not tolerated in many European countries, I think there were some famous cases where a Holocaust denier got a fine or was banned from entering the country. The second world war and the Holocaust was so horrific ... after the war many German civilians were forced by Allied soldiers to help bury the corpses that were piled up in the concentration camps like stacks of firewood. There is so much resentment, and shame for those who collaborated with the Nazis, they tried to deal with it by banning swastikas, banning Holocaust denial, making it illegal to name your child "Adolph Hitler", etc.

In the U.S. you can deny all you want.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Thats because Finklestein is a Jew.

And tell me why you do not have any example of a muslim engaging in such behavior and being well known like this? They are caught in their steps much before they get that kind of publicity, and silenced for the audacity in exchange of their citizen rights, or they are just deported without any noise being created over it.

I know many who have been arrested, or kicked out of their posts.

General McChrystal is a recent example. Excercising HIS right of freedom of speech cost him his whole career.

General McChrystal isn't Muslim and he faces no criminal penalty for expressing his views. If a general in the military publicly criticizes the commander-in-chief of the military, the CIC can replace that general. No surprise there.

Please tell me about the "many who have been arrested" for their political views in the U.S.

 

[Sahar]

You are mistaken. We have had several cases where holocaust deniers , racists and blasphemers have held speeches or published material online or elsewhere.

"We" refers to....? I was talking generally about some Western countries. I didn't mention specific examples i.e the US and Canada except when it came to the part about supporting Hamas and Hezbullah.

But I have heard of NO incident where any of these have been a subject to imprisonment or violence.

No incident where? Hate speech and holocaust denial are prohibited in a lot of Western country including yours.

Some stuff from Wikipedia:

Norway prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten or ridicule someone or that incite hatred, persecution or contempt for someone due to their skin colour, ethnic origin, homosexual life style or orientation or, religion or philosophy of life.[17]

Members of Westboro Baptist Church have been specifically banned from entering Canada for hate speech.

In Canada too:

In Warman v. Winnicki, 2006 CHRT 20, Karen A. Jensen found the respondent had posted messages to the Internet which were "vicious and dehumanizing". The adjudicator ordered the respondent to cease and desist his discriminatory practices and to pay a penalty of $6,000.

Hate speech laws in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In UK:

On 13 October 2001, Harry Hammond, an evangelist, was arrested and charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act (1986) because he had displayed to people in Bournemouth a large sign bearing the words "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord". In April 2002, a magistrate convicted Hammond, fined him £300, and ordered him to pay costs of £395

Manfred van H. was convicted under the controversial §166 of the German Penal Code, the so-called Gotteslästerungsklausel (blasphemy clause)

Shortly after the July 2005 London bombings, Van H. had manufactured toilet paper on whose sheets he had stamped the text "Koran, der Heilige Qur'än" ("Qur'an, the holy Qur'an"); the Qur'an being the holy book of Islam. These sheets he sent to mosques, TV stations and print media, offering them for sale and announcing that all proceedings would go toward a "memorial for all victims of Islamic terror". He also described the Qur'an as a "terrorist's cookbook". On the Internet, he wrote that he did this to find out "who is on whose side" in today's Germany.

Manfred van H. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1996, Garaudy published his most controversial work, Les Mythes fondateurs de la politique israelienne, later translated into English as The Founding Myths of Modern Israel. Because the book contained Holocaust denial, French courts banned any further publication and on February 27, 1998 fined him 240,000 French francs. He was sentenced to a suspended jail sentence of several years.

Roger Garaudy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the passage of the Gayssot act against Holocaust denial in 1990, Faurisson was prosecuted and fined. In 1991, he was dismissed from his academic post

Austrian caricaturist Michael Haderer, for instance, was sentenced in absentia to six months in prison in Greece for his comic book "The Life of Jesus." The work showed Jesus as a marijuana-smoking hippie.

Europe No Stranger to Blasphemy | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 07.02.2006

The law is very clear on this point: As long as you don't incite violence you can speak freely.

No, the laws that prohibit hate speech, holocaust denial, blasphemy in many European countries, Canada and Australia don't say so.

 

[Starsoul]

Fair enough.
I'll compare countries with you.

First off, in which country do you live that is so wonderfully moral and successful?

Why talk about countries when you clearly claim to speak for the better morals of your country despite (yours) and its flagrant, self evident track record in hate speech? What are you trying to prove here? That development and high standardized lifestyle of the educated europeans has taught them a thing about morals better than the poor uneducated bedouins of the dessert? Is that your scale of comparison? Do you know your country STILL falls way behind in morals and speech ethics?

 

[Starsoul]

General McChrystal isn't Muslim and he faces no criminal penalty for expressing his views. If a general in the military publicly criticizes the commander-in-chief of the military, the CIC can replace that general. No surprise there.

Mr, generals at field have a very sharp n clear view of things, you don't get to that post by kicking around foosballs. He stated only the candy glazed scenario,in frustration of what was being projected of the war in Afganistan. In reality you have no idea whats happening in the region.

Please tell me about the "many who have been arrested" for their political views in the U.S.

my friend's brother who wrote a muslim blog.( it was not even remotely hate related)
Dozens of my friends brothers been lifted by the efbe-eye because, well they were good muslims who used to pray 5 times a day in the mosques . I could get into details but sorry i cannot, Ive already said too much.