Palestianian atheist arrested

[jarofthoughts]

"We" refers to....? I was talking generally about some Western countries. I didn't mention specific examples i.e the US and Canada except when it came to the part about supporting Hamas and Hezbullah.

"We" refers to Norway in this context.

No incident where? Hate speech and holocaust denial are prohibited in a lot of Western country including yours.

That goes towards other laws that prohibit discrimination based on religion, skin colour or ethnic group. Also inciting violence is not allowed, or for that matter, hate speech when it is likely to result in violence. In other words, we protect people, but not symbols, religions or opinions.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Why talk about countries when you clearly claim to speak for the better morals of your country despite (yours) and its flagrant, self evident track record in hate speech? What are you trying to prove here? That development and high standardized lifestyle of the educated europeans has taught them a thing about morals better than the poor uneducated bedouins of the dessert? Is that your scale of comparison? Do you know your country STILL falls way behind in morals and speech ethics?

Because the morals of a country can be defined and to a large degree measured.

And no, I do not know that my country falls behind in morals and speech ethics, unless of course you define that as "never say anything bad about religion, especially not Islam".

 

[Autodidact]

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

No, you're mistaken. In the U.S. you can advocate anything you want except inciting violence, and you can't libel anyone. Although even libel only brings civil liability, not criminal prosecution. The Constitution protects everyone's right to free speech, no matter how unpopular, insulting or blasphemous.

 

[Autodidact]

Thats because Finklestein is a Jew. Prove to me that the US does not protect the Jews. It is in the oath of the us department of the state that 'we protect and support the rights and interests of the state of israel."

And tell me why you do not have any example of a muslim engaging in such behavior and being well known like this? They are caught in their steps much before they get that kind of publicity, and silenced for the audacity in exchange of their citizen rights, or they are just deported without any noise being created over it.

I know many who have been arrested, or kicked out of their posts.

General McChrystal is a recent example. Excercising HIS right of freedom of speech cost him his whole career.

Really? General McChrystal is in jail now? Can you name the many Muslims who have been jailed in the U.S. for unpopular speech?

 

[Autodidact]

You haven't because it is not publicized, period.

If norway doesnt have a law against blasphemy, it means it protects, encourages and supports blashphemy , talk about glorifying lack of morals and ethics.

The incident where people of the whole world ,majorly Norway, Dutch and the Denmark enthusiastically engaged in caricaturizing the respect figures of the muslims, speaks volumes of the pungent putrefactive intellect they choose to celebrate their rights of freedom with; it is FUN for them when they indulge in disrespect, it is refreshing for them when a huge segment of a society is upset at their imbecility, and they derive a sense of pleasure when they exercize that right Only against Muslims.

Hate is their religion, Immorality their lifestyle, and satire their spirit.

They stand united over their such Kind, benevolent and meritorious projection of freedom of ill speech.

It is of utmost wonder if they'd ever speak for the rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world, their sense of God keeps them occupied with devicing newer ways to insult only.

I have no respect for such people, and though they do not believe in God, they don't know how they make the believers even more thankful for the concept of eternal misery. Laugh and you shall laugh only little.

O.K., RF members, in case you've ever wondered about the effect of a Muslim upbringing on mental functioning, here you see an example of it in action.

Yeah, Starsoul, I bet those Danish people are up nights worrying about eternal torment from a God they don't believe exists.

It always seems to me that if something were true, you wouldn't have to use threats to get people to believe it. So as soon as someone breaks out the threats, I assume whatever they're pushing is false.

You do realize that the cartoons that upset you so much (a concept bizarre in itself) are the work of a single man, right, not all the Danish, Dutch and Norwegian people of the world.

So what do you think of the people who rioted, burned down buildings, and beat people to death because they were up set about some cartoons?

 

[Autodidact]

i don't care where your place is.

Then why are you telling me to stay in it?

i am just telling you it is not between me and another Muslim.

I'll make any contribution to the debate that I wish, and if you don't like it, you can just put it in your great big pile to things to ignore and evade.

i think it is better to know it than being reminded each time you try to come between us.

there is no new question and it is definetely your dream to think that way

.

I was just wondering whether your admonition against insults applies to Muslims, or only to non-Muslims. Apparently only the latter, in which case it's apparent your problem is not with insults at all, it's just with people who disagree with you.

 

[Autodidact]

debate your thoughts as you like. who give you right to play 'arbitrator' between two people specially when those two are not fine with it? know your place, if not each time i would make sure you crash a wall and remind you you're not belong between us

.

My place is the same as yours, another equal member of the RF community, where, unlike Palestine, we have free speech.

But if you want to make me "crash a wall" feel free to try.

 

[Autodidact]

Ok, maybe who are jailed those who actually provide material support for Hamas. But for example, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is banned from entering the US and the UK for justifying Hamas actions which are recognized as terrorist acts there. And based on this, I don't think you can do it safely there without being sued.

That's right. In other words, you were wrong.

Both of them are Jews, right?

Oh please tell us in detail exactly what relevance you think that has to the discussion. I'm looking forward to it with glee.

But if you came to the details, I think it would constitute a problem.

OK, but In Canada, UK and other European countries...etc, you might be sued and imprisoned and if you are an outsider banned from entering the country.
And we all know that holocaust deniers are not tolerated in many European countries.

You mean an illegal immigrant? Like the thousands of Muslims begging to be admitted to those countries, fleeing the oppression of their Muslim homelands?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Mr, generals at field have a very sharp n clear view of things, you don't get to that post by kicking around foosballs. He stated only the candy glazed scenario,in frustration of what was being projected of the war in Afganistan. In reality you have no idea whats happening in the region.

You're changing the subject. We were talking about free speech issues in the U.S. and comparing this to the OP.

my friend's brother who wrote a muslim blog.( it was not even remotely hate related)
Dozens of my friends brothers been lifted by the efbe-eye because, well they were good muslims who used to pray 5 times a day in the mosques . I could get into details but sorry i cannot, Ive already said too much.

Your friend's brothers were arrested by the F.B.I. for writing Muslim blogs ... did this happen in the U.S.?

There are lots of Muslim bloggers in the U.S. Why would the FBI arrest these ones?

Starsoul, to be frank, I am quite skeptical you have any idea what you are talking about. I am sorry to say that your earlier statement, that Norman Finkelstein is not imprisoned only because he is a Jew, really shows your amazing ignorance of the U.S. legal system.

 

[Autodidact]

my friend's brother who wrote a muslim blog.( it was not even remotely hate related)
Dozens of my friends brothers been lifted by the efbe-eye because, well they were good muslims who used to pray 5 times a day in the mosques . I could get into details but sorry i cannot, Ive already said too much.

Names? In short, I deny what you are saying, and would like you to give specifics so I can contest it. Thank you.

 

[.lava]

My place is the same as yours, another equal member of the RF community, where, unlike Palestine, we have free speech.

But if you want to make me "crash a wall" feel free to try.

we're done with it. can't you accept it and move on?

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No incident where? Hate speech and holocaust denial are prohibited in a lot of Western country including yours [Norway].

Okay so we've established that there are restrictions on hate speech and Holocaust denial in some Western countries. Though in the U.S. you're pretty much free to say whatever you want. Anyway, how this this relevant to this thread and the Palestinian atheist blogger?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It is of utmost wonder if they'd [Norwegians] ever speak for the rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world, their sense of God keeps them occupied with devicing newer ways to insult only.

You may be interested in the following:

Norwegian solidarity with Pakistan: "Prominent actors and directors are working voluntarily for this performance. There are already eleven cultural organisations including the Artists Association of Norway who have sponsored this performance. The proceeds of this show will go to Labour Relief Campaign Pakistan. We have got the information that 10,000 Norwegian Kronor have already been donated for this show by two organisations."

The Norwegian Solidarity Committee for Latin America

Norwegian aid to Haiti

Someone owes these Norwegians an apology.

 

[Autodidact]

we're done with it. can't you accept it and move on?

.

What is "it"?

 

[jarofthoughts]

You may be interested in the following:

Someone owes these Norwegians an apology.

Thanks for that.

It didn't occur to me to refute that "argument" since it seemed both baseless and silly, but while we're at it Norway is the fourth largest contributor to foreign aid as relative to military spending and despite being a small country with less than 5 million citizens it is the tenth largest overall contributor in the world.

So much for not speaking for the "rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world". :sarcastic


Oh, and I might also mention that on a personal basis I spend my holidays doing voluntary work rebuilding the school system in Northern Iraq.


References:
http://www.norway.org/ARCHIVE/News/archive/1997/199703aid/
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_com_to_for_aid-economy-commitment-to-foreign-aid
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

 

[.lava]

What is "it"?

hmm... let's see. what was it really? must be something worthless, so worthless i can't remember

.

 

[Sahar]

Hey Sahar,

Again I don't want to get into the pointless debate about whether or not the West is superior to Muslim countries, we both know there are free speech problems and disputes everywhere. I'm not saying free speech is perfect I just thought your characterization was inaccurate and I want to respect the facts.

Thanks! But what you are not interested in, was the main theme of this thread. If we both know then it seems many others don't.

Okay thanks for that example, according to news reports that decision was controversial in the UK and he eventually was accepted in France for medical treatment. I'm not sure why he was denied a visa to the U.S., if it was because of his statements then I agree this is probably a free speech issue. From what I hear it has been even more difficult to be allowed in to the U.S. since the Sept. 11 attacks.

He was banned from entering US since 1999, and of course for his views and fatwas...that are called controversial is the West.

But you can't get sued for saying things like you believe suicide bombings against Israelis are Islamically justified, etc. in the U.S.

Well, I doubt so, at least I might get problems, not necessary legal ones. I have a brother who is preparing his PhD in Canada and he traveled to the US a couple of times before for intern training. He told me that the one should stay away from these topics because any support can be problematic. I don't know if he meant legally problematic or not. But if I traveled there, I'd rather follow his advice. And if Shiekh Al Qaradawi (may Allah preserve him) is banned for his views regarding hamas operations, then this confirms my assumption.

The only point I'm making is that you are certainly not going to face any criminal penalty, such as prison, for expressing these views in the U.S. There are a lot of political groups, such as the American Civil Liberties Union, who go around making sure that everyone's speech is protected even from non-government interference.
I honestly don't know about those countries. You're right that Holocaust denial is not tolerated in many European countries, I think there were some famous cases where a Holocaust denier got a fine or was banned from entering the country. The second world war and the Holocaust was so horrific ... after the war many German civilians were forced by Allied soldiers to help bury the corpses that were piled up in the concentration camps like stacks of firewood. There is so much resentment, and shame for those who collaborated with the Nazis, they tried to deal with it by banning swastikas, banning Holocaust denial, making it illegal to name your child "Adolph Hitler", etc.

In the U.S. you can deny all you want.

I know that the US emphasize more freedom of speech relatively to other Western nations but I mentioned the example of Hamas because I believed it would constitute a problem there.

 

[Sahar]

Okay so we've established that there are restrictions on hate speech and Holocaust denial in some Western countries. Though in the U.S. you're pretty much free to say whatever you want. Anyway, how this this relevant to this thread and the Palestinian atheist blogger?

Well, if anyone read the thread will realize how relevant it's. And I am pointing out that freedom of speech has its limits in the different parts of the world including the civilized world and not only in case of inciting violence as some people claim but sarcastically it can be for blasphemy. If this is the example that the the civilized world is showing to the uncivilized world, then what? Clean our own houses first instead of attacking Islam and describing Muslims as cavemen or Islam as being oppressive...etc as I told kai. In addition, I hate hypocrisy.

 

[Sahar]

"We" refers to Norway in this context.

And I was talking much general than Norway. But what do you think of the law that prohibits hate speech in Norway? Does it state" only when you incite violence"?

That goes towards other laws that prohibit discrimination based on religion, skin colour or ethnic group. Also inciting violence is not allowed, or for that matter, hate speech when it is likely to result in violence. In other words, we protect people, but not symbols, religions or opinions.

Of course, we protect people.

And you still haven't answered my question.

What question?

 

[kai]

So i have come to the conclusion that there are certain limits to free speech, in certain countries. That seems reasonable to me, as you cannot allow people to incite or promote violence. and indeed some countries have a ban Holocaust denial and others have Blasphemy laws.

But you know what? every one here is entitled to criticize any country on any of these issues and bring their arguments for and against.

I think its easy for non believers to think that insulting the prophet isn't very important because after all its not their prophet is it.But to believers its an insult so it shouldn't be surprising if in a Muslim country its illegal. arguable ,but not surprising surely?


i think Waleed Al Husseini's most important issue is probably the fact he is apostate forwarding his anti religious stance under an oppressive and violent regime whereby he knowingly put himself in extreme danger by expressing his views., He would have Known this, i dont think Martyrdom was intended so i think he probably didn't think he would get caught.


Lets keep an eye on what happens to him.