Pants on Fire

[oldbadger]

The ones that witnessed his life in person.

Got any names?
I can only think of one.

 

[PureX]

Why don't people believe that Jesus performed miracles? Are all the witnesses lying?

There are no eye-witnesses. There are only stories written down 75 to 200 years after the events were supposed to have occurred. Stories, the purpose of which is to exemplify the revelation of divinity within humanity, and it's ability to overcome human moral failure when embodied.

 

[PruePhillip]

Which eye witnesses? We have a few that clearly had an agenda and wrote many years later. And one that never met Jesus in person that seems to have greatly changed the message.

An early "eye witness" was Isaiah the prophet, about 600 years before Jesus. He spoke of the
Messiah who's birth would be a sign to the nation - a lowly man, rejected by his nation, pure,
spotless, giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, raising the dead, offering his life for his
people - and rising again and being satisfied with his sacrifice.

 

[PruePhillip]

Got any names?
I can only think of one.

John, who wrote his Gospel later in life, was one. He wasn't an historian
like Luke the Physician or a law man like Paul - just the "Disciple whom
Jesus loved." A gentle man. This shows in his three letters.
Peter was an "eye witness to his majesty." It was understood that he was
the author of Mark's Gospel, Mark being his secretary or companion.
Luke never met Jesus, but he was with the ministry and probably died in
Rome with Paul.
James was probably Jesus' brother.
Matthew was one of the Apostles.

 

[Polymath257]

An early "eye witness" was Isaiah the prophet, about 600 years before Jesus. He spoke of the
Messiah who's birth would be a sign to the nation - a lowly man, rejected by his nation, pure,
spotless, giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, raising the dead, offering his life for his
people - and rising again and being satisfied with his sacrifice.

Hardly a good example of an eye witness.

 

[PruePhillip]

Hardly a good example of an eye witness.

What kind of witness do you think he was? Some would say he, like others who wrote
of the Messiah, "saw through the eye of faith."
My point is - not only were their actual eye witnesses to Jesus, there were people who
wrote of him thousands of years before he was born.

 

[Polymath257]

What kind of witness do you think he was? Some would say he, like others who wrote
of the Messiah, "saw through the eye of faith."
My point is - not only were their actual eye witnesses to Jesus, there were people who
wrote of him thousands of years before he was born.

he had some dreams that other interpreted as being about Jesus even though, for many of them, it is clear he was talking about events at his time.

Vague 'prophecies' are not eye witness descriptions.

 

[PruePhillip]

he had some dreams that other interpreted as being about Jesus even though, for many of them, it is clear he was talking about events at his time.

Vague 'prophecies' are not eye witness descriptions.

So these writers in David and Isaiah's time were speaking of someone else?
Someone who's birth was a sign to the people, someone rejected, despised,
outcast, tried and crucified. This someone raised the dead, healed the sick,
gave sight to the blind. This someone who was killed but raised again to see
the work of his hand - the redemption of his people. And as David put it, "It
shall be told to people not yet born that he has done this."
We need to identify who this person is. Should be easy, it's someone the
Gentiles will believe upon.

 

[Polymath257]

So these writers in David and Isaiah's time were speaking of someone else?
Someone who's birth was a sign to the people, someone rejected, despised,
outcast, tried and crucified. This someone raised the dead, healed the sick,
gave sight to the blind. This someone who was killed but raised again to see
the work of his hand - the redemption of his people. And as David put it, "It
shall be told to people not yet born that he has done this."
We need to identify who this person is. Should be easy, it's someone the
Gentiles will believe upon.

You are assuming that I consider Isaiah and David to be actual prophets that
are able to see into the future.

I do not.

I think people read into what they say, interpreting them after the fact to
conform to the prejudices of the reader.

So, no, I see no need to identify this person since i consider the image to
be a figment of someone's imagination.

 

[PruePhillip]

You are assuming that I consider Isaiah and David to be actual prophets that
are able to see into the future.

I do not.

I think people read into what they say, interpreting them after the fact to
conform to the prejudices of the reader.

So, no, I see no need to identify this person since i consider the image to
be a figment of someone's imagination.

Incredible imagination indeed. Job (Bronze Age) said his Redeemer is
alive now and will one day stand upon the earth. Jacob said the Messiah
would come from the line of Judah, and a future nation of Israel will end
when he comes. David said this Messiah will be rejected even of his own
brothers and sisters. Daniel said the nation that destroys Jerusalem and
the temple will also destroy the Messiah. Zechariah said the Messianic
King who will conquer Israel's enemies will be the same one the Jews
once rejected and crucified. And the Jews will go into exile again, and
when they return they will one day see their Messiah.
All these writers held to a consistent theme involving Israel, the Messianic
King and the Redeemer - it was consistent for about 2,000 years.
When we want to explain all this away we need to develop a credible
explanation of who these writers were speaking of.