Parents on their way to prison for not providing medical care for child.

[nPeace]

Hey, nPeace. nPea you are well.

The Bible says about Korah and his supporters, 'they went alive down into Sheol'!
We know those going to Sheol, will have a Resurrection! Isn't that something? Outright rebels, and Jehovah will resurrect them. Now that is Our Loving God, Jehovah!

Take care

Interesting... Never looked at it that way. Hmmm.
I think you just gave me some additional home work, because now you've gotten me thinking of some other accounts - like the king of Babylon... Isaiah 14:1-20

For a certainty, Jehovah's love is unfathomable.

 

[nPeace]

If your child needs insulin and you give them orange juice instead, you don't deserve to be around children or anyone with any kind of condition that requires informed decision-making. Media doesn't help either. How many times have medical professionals see a person on TV or in movies bottoming out with their blood sugar and the response is "give them insulin" when you SHOULD BE giving them orange juice, peanut butter, glucagon, SOMETHING ... ANYTHING ... other than insulin!

That seems reasonable.
Operative word "if".
Operative phrase "If your child needs".
Thank you. So there is no need to force something on someone, if they don't need it. Case in point - blood transfusion.

But in their minds, praying is not being neglectful. We have to protect children and other vulnerable people from idiots who let their pastors give medical advice without a license.

Yes, of course. Both pastors, and others who have not a clue as to what the facts are, and obviously don't seem to care.

Indeed. A patient who can't consent for age or mental reasons should NOT be vulnerable to idiots/monsters.

The sad reality is, we can't prevent minors from being vulnerable to according to you "idiots/monsters", since it's not easy to tell those.

It'd be rough, but I'd trust even the voodoo priest over just doing nothing. At least they might know some herbs or something that could alleviate symptoms, if they couldn't cure it directly. I mean, Jesus prayed not to die and we saw how THAT turned out, right?

Well some people prefer to place their lives in the hands of demons, rather than trust in God. It happens even outside medical decisions. That's their choice.
The one who prays also has a chance that one of the doctors may turn up at the door, and say, 'I was just reading one of my books, and I think I may know what the problem might be.'
An answer to their prayer.
No. Jesus prayed to do God's will.

I would imagine it would fit under the same legal theory that if your ox is known to gore people and you didn't do anything about it, you AND the ox had to die.


And as I've told JWs here who gripe about bloodless surgeries, if they believe normal saline works the same way as blood does, they lack far too much information to consent to any procedure.

So you are saying this is your experience, or you are just speaking because we have freedom of speech? Many Jehovah's Witnesses personally have had bloodless surgery Many were in critical situations. All are alive and can give you their experience.
Many surgeons can give you actually statistics, of Jehovah's Witness patients, whom they have successfully used these methods.
Where is your evidence?

But what was her H&H? If she wasn't at risk, it wouldn't have been necessary. Blood transfusions, at least every place I've worked, is ordered once it goes below 8. You were on the verge of death. She, apparently, was not.

This is like saying you shouldn't need blood after a gunshot wound to the face because your mom got a paper cut and she healed a lot faster without it.

I would say they really don't. It's based on religious dogma and severe lack of medical knowledge.

Well, someone is lacking knowledge.

 

[nPeace]

Again, you cannot actually address any criticism of your "argument" -- instead you criticize the person.

AS YOU JUST DID ABOVE: "I didn't think you would have a clue how it would apply."

YOUR VERSE ABSOLUTELY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PORN-- AND YOU KNOW IT.

You hate that I called you on your lie-- the entirety of your "rebuttal" is to call me ugly things...

How very Jesus of you--not.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

WHY don't they want you talking with apostates? If we're all such "liars" and "disgruntled former members".....

Now you've just classified yourself as an apostate. (There was little question anyway, but it's been confirmed by you.)

You at one time dedicated your life to Jehovah and loved Him, how sad! (Philippians 3:18-19)

Jehovah will deal with you. We won't.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

More blaming the messenger on your part.

You had multiple chances to show that your Hebrews verse was about porn-- and you blew it again.

Typical.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Jehovah will deal with you. We won't.

Empty threats. Amusing-- if atheists were worried about "hell" or other myths?

They'd not be atheists, would they?

 

[nPeace]

More blaming the messenger on your part.

You had multiple chances to show that your Hebrews verse was about porn-- and you blew it again.

Typical.

Knock knock.
I told you the scripture was not addressing the porn question.
Did that get in? It doesn't appear that way.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The "reality" behind my "spin" is the reality. If the medical experts are telling us that there is no other common procedure in medicine with the propensity to cause harm or death (morbidity and mortality) as much as blood transfusion does, then that to any intelligent person, (not indoctrinated by outdated medical practice,) is not rocket science.

Would you opt for a treatment that posed such risks if there were safer alternatives? The facts are that more people have serious complications that lead to death after transfusions, than those who choose not to receive them. This is well documented.

You want facts? There they are. We all have the same choices and understanding the risks doesn't mean that we would choose any differently for our children. Safer alternatives are available and all we would ask is that they be implemented first. It isn't just a blind religious belief....it is backed up by modern medicine.

You wouldn't listen to reason any of the other times we talked about this. Are you willing to now?

I know it must be a tough pill to swallow to acknowledge that the tenets of the religion you care about kill people, but that doesn't change the actual facts.

We are not against medical practice.

Yes you are.

 

[Deeje]

You wouldn't listen to reason any of the other times we talked about this. Are you willing to now?

But of course you are not guilty of that yourself though, are you?

When experts in this field of medicine from around the world are sounding the warning, are you going to contradict them? Do your credentials somehow outweigh theirs? Does your experience somehow carry more weight than theirs?

What do the words "morbidity" and "mortality" mean to you? In plain English, they mean that no other common procedure in medicine carries more risk of permanent damage or death than blood transfusions do. We didn't say that....the medical professionals did. Are you listening?

We follow what the Bible teaches and we have always found that it was the right thing to do. Even when everyone thought we were wrong. We have had medicos apologise to us over this issue.

When the AIDS epidemic of the 80's was taking a huge toll on certain members of the population, (and still is) what were the main methods of transmission? Homosexual sex with multiple partners, infected bi-sexual people engaging in immoral sex with multiple partners and taking foreign (infected) blood into the body. All of which are condemned in scripture. Following the Bible's instruction was a protection.

No one is saying you can't have all the blood you want.....but you do so at considerable risk. It's yours to take.

I know it must be a tough pill to swallow to acknowledge that the tenets of the religion you care about kill people, but that doesn't change the actual facts.

That is a lie. If you had to compare the statistics of people who died in the ER from their injuries, you would find that those who were given blood died way more often than those who refused it.
In fact, it is so rare that it often makes the news. Short on actual detail, people are led to believe a sensational news story, rather than the truth, which is never told.

In the video that I posted, there was a cytoscan of a patient who was given saline, compared to being given whole blood. What did the scan show? It demonstrated that foreign blood clogs up the system, delivering little oxygen to the tissues and compared to the saline, was putting the patient more at risk than if they had received no blood at all. Saline is a volume expander and used in conjunction with the administration of EPO, (which stimulates the production of red cells) patients can recover rapidly and recovery is not impeded by a compromised immune system.

That video was nothing to do with JW's but it showed that we understand more about blood transfusions than the average uneducated doctor. We have a Hospital Liason Committee who are experts in this field, and make it their business to keep up to date on all the bloodless techniques used, even in cases of trauma. Doctors from all over the world consult with these men when they have JW patients who need surgery or whose treatment needs alternative measures. The outcomes have been so successful, that many doctors are opting for these approaches with their non Witness patients in general.

That is obviously a bitter pill for people like yourself who hate admitting that they are wrong about this issue. JW's can't possibly be right about anything, can they? We understand your position.

 

[Deeje]

Empty threats. Amusing-- if atheists were worried about "hell" or other myths?

They'd not be atheists, would they?

You do understand that @Hockeycowboy was addressing that comment to someone who identifies as a "Christian"? Atheists and believers alike will all answer to the same judge, according to scripture. We believe scripture....and we believe that God doesn't take kindly to apostates or atheists.

For believers, the difference between a "sheep" and a "goat" is how they treat Christ's "brothers".
For unbelievers, Christ doesn't exist and therefore has no brothers. Same outcome though, because all humans at the judgment time are placed in one category or the other. Some "goats" think they are "sheep" is all.
Jesus knows the difference and that is all that matters to us. We are not their judge.

You don't have to justify your beliefs to us....you are free to believe whatever you wish.....for now.....how could God be more fair than that?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Empty threats. Amusing-- if atheists were worried about "hell" or other myths?

They'd not be atheists, would they?

"Hell"? Who said that? You really don't know what the Bible actually teaches, do you? You're not alone.

You will find out in the Resurrection, i think. You'll be pleasantly surprised. I just hope you'll be accepting of Jehovah's kind gift then.

That information I promised about the benefits of bloodless surgery and applying safer alternatives....it's coming.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hey, nPeace. nPea you are well.

The Bible says about Korah and his supporters, 'they went alive down into Sheol'!
We know those going to Sheol, will have a Resurrection! Isn't that something? Outright rebels, and Jehovah will resurrect them. Now that is Our Loving God, Jehovah!

Take care

Claims without evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You do understand that @Hockeycowboy was addressing that comment to someone who identifies as a "Christian"? Atheists and believers alike will all answer to the same judge, according to scripture. We believe scripture....and we believe that God doesn't take kindly to apostates or atheists.

For believers, the difference between a "sheep" and a "goat" is how they treat Christ's "brothers".
For unbelievers, Christ doesn't exist and therefore has no brothers. Same outcome though, because all humans at the judgment time are placed in one category or the other. Some "goats" think they are "sheep" is all.
Jesus knows the difference and that is all that matters to us. We are not their judge.

You don't have to justify your beliefs to us....you are free to believe whatever you wish.....for now.....how could God be more fair than that?

Claims without evidence.

But nevermind your unsubstantiated claim? If you are prepared to be enjoying Infinite Heaven, while knowing that your fellow humans are suffering Infinite Torment?

You are just as much of a Sociopath/Monster as is the god you believe in.


Not good. The opposite, in fact, of good...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

But of course you are not guilty of that yourself though, are you?

When experts in this field of medicine from around the world...

WHAT "experts".... WHERE?

Claims without evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You don't have to justify your beliefs to us....you are free to believe whatever you wish.....for now.....how could God be more fair than that?

Empty threats, now? Is this the god you wish to present to the world?

A god who has to stoop so low, as to threaten with INFINITE TORTURE to get and keep followers?

That's kinda EVIL, that's what that is...!

But. If atheists cared about your empty threats of a butchering, terror-god? We'd not be atheists...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

"Hell"? Who said that? You really don't know what the Bible actually teaches, do you? You're not alone.

You will find out in the Resurrection, i think. You'll be pleasantly surprised. I just hope you'll be accepting of Jehovah's kind gift then.

That information I promised about the benefits of bloodless surgery and applying safer alternatives....it's coming.

I have seen yours and other descriptions of your god-- and please..... my cat has better morality/ethics.

"kind gift"? Pass. I cannot think of a more heinous existence, than to be forced into the presence of a narcissistic Super Being who demands constant ego-stroking (prayers)....

What sort of Super Being would even permit such things, if it were truly GOOD?

None!

 

[RedhorseWoman]

But of course you are not guilty of that yourself though, are you?

When experts in this field of medicine from around the world are sounding the warning, are you going to contradict them? Do your credentials somehow outweigh theirs? Does your experience somehow carry more weight than theirs?

What do the words "morbidity" and "mortality" mean to you? In plain English, they mean that no other common procedure in medicine carries more risk of permanent damage or death than blood transfusions do. We didn't say that....the medical professionals did. Are you listening?

We follow what the Bible teaches and we have always found that it was the right thing to do. Even when everyone thought we were wrong. We have had medicos apologise to us over this issue.

When the AIDS epidemic of the 80's was taking a huge toll on certain members of the population, (and still is) what were the main methods of transmission? Homosexual sex with multiple partners, infected bi-sexual people engaging in immoral sex with multiple partners and taking foreign (infected) blood into the body. All of which are condemned in scripture. Following the Bible's instruction was a protection.

No one is saying you can't have all the blood you want.....but you do so at considerable risk. It's yours to take.



That is a lie. If you had to compare the statistics of people who died in the ER from their injuries, you would find that those who were given blood died way more often than those who refused it.
In fact, it is so rare that it often makes the news. Short on actual detail, people are led to believe a sensational news story, rather than the truth, which is never told.

In the video that I posted, there was a cytoscan of a patient who was given saline, compared to being given whole blood. What did the scan show? It demonstrated that foreign blood clogs up the system, delivering little oxygen to the tissues and compared to the saline, was putting the patient more at risk than if they had received no blood at all. Saline is a volume expander and used in conjunction with the administration of EPO, (which stimulates the production of red cells) patients can recover rapidly and recovery is not impeded by a compromised immune system.

That video was nothing to do with JW's but it showed that we understand more about blood transfusions than the average uneducated doctor. We have a Hospital Liason Committee who are experts in this field, and make it their business to keep up to date on all the bloodless techniques used, even in cases of trauma. Doctors from all over the world consult with these men when they have JW patients who need surgery or whose treatment needs alternative measures. The outcomes have been so successful, that many doctors are opting for these approaches with their non Witness patients in general.

That is obviously a bitter pill for people like yourself who hate admitting that they are wrong about this issue. JW's can't possibly be right about anything, can they? We understand your position.

Sorry, but parts of your post just cracked me up. If I had been drinking soda or coffee, it would now be sprayed all over my computer monitor.

Yes, there are risks with blood transfusions. There are risks with any medical procedure. Taking antibiotics could kill you due to adverse reactions. Taking other medications could also kill you or cause long-term problems. However, if a person is bleeding out, taking a blood transfusion is less of a risk than dying.

The comment that really was hilarious, though, was your statement that the members of the Hospital Liaison Committee are "experts in this field." Please...you must be kidding or delusional or both. Those men are not experts...they simply carry out the ridiculous dictates of the Watchtower leaders with a list of what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable to those Watchtower leaders. These guys are carpenters or window washers or Walmart greeters. They aren't experts educated in medical treatments. They are there to ensure that the sick JW sticks to the company rules and that's about it.

BTW, why haven't you posted the scriptures that list the God-approved and God-banned blood fractions that the JWs abide by? Haven't you claimed that all your beliefs are Bible based? If so, then where is the Biblical proof for these restrictions?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Empty threats, now? Is this the god you wish to present to the world?

A god who has to stoop so low, as to threaten with INFINITE TORTURE to get and keep followers?

That's kinda EVIL, that's what that is...!

But. If atheists cared about your empty threats of a butchering, terror-god? We'd not be atheists...

Just so that you know...JWs don't believe in a fiery Hell or infinite torture. What they do believe is that God will kill 99.9% of the human population in excruciating ways (tongues rotting out of their mouths, etc.) but once they are dead, that's it.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I have seen yours and other descriptions of your god-- and please..... my cat has better morality/ethics.

"kind gift"? Pass. I cannot think of a more heinous existence, than to be forced into the presence of a narcissistic Super Being who demands constant ego-stroking (prayers)....

What sort of Super Being would even permit such things, if it were truly GOOD?

None!

Well, you know that "pleasant surprise" he speaks about would be yours only if you were lucky enough to die before God starts destroying all of the "wicked" (i.e. any who are not JWs or judged by God as having the right "heart condition" to become JWs if only they have the opportunity to do so.)

If you should be lucky enough to die and be resurrected, you would then be given the chance to accept the JW teachings. If you didn't come around to their way of thinking, God would destroy you on the spot.

Better, I suppose, than burning in Hell.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What sort of Super Being would even permit such things, if it were truly GOOD?

Permit what things?
Is your life so bad, that you hate it? I thought you said a couple months ago you felt that things were pretty good.

But it really isn't, is it? I agree.

You see, like many others, I at one time couldn't understand why a God would let His creation suffer and not intervene.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102015364#h=3:0-8:150

Is there a reason God would allow bad things to happen? Does the Bible provide a reasonable explanation for it?

Yes! I learned why!

Genesis 3:1-6 reveals Jehovah God's right to govern man was questioned.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015151#h=1:0-27:277

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015651#h=5:0-18:346

He is simply letting mankind rule themselves, staying out of all worldly affairs that don't affect His purposes.

And no matter what a person may endure ..... even slavery or sickness all their life .... the suffering only lasts 70-80 years. If they have a lot to suffer, even less. Then they die, RIPing until the Resurrection comes!