Paris attack: Two Muslim women are stabbed under the Eiffel Tower

[lewisnotmiller]

Huh?
If France does not have a strict curriculum for all Middle Schools with inspectors to ensure that standards are kept, then that could only show us French standards, imo.

I am most saddened to know that Mr Patys showed images of Muhammud that could have upset Muslims, especially children.

Maybe it might have been different if naked cartoon images of Bahauallah had been shown? I can tell you that even decent pictures of either person would be strictly banned/moderated here on RF. Let that be your guide, Daniel.

People do provocative, silly or misguided things every day.
This teacher was murdered, and that should be condemned without reservation in my opinion.

Similarly, the attack on 2 Muslims should be condemned.

These are not justifiable actions in any way, shape or form. End of story.

 

[danieldemol]

Maybe it might have been different if naked cartoon images of Bahauallah had been shown? I can tell you that even decent pictures of either person would be strictly banned/moderated here on RF.

It wouldn't change my view if it was a cartoon of Baha'u'llah naked or whatever else floats the boat of the cartoonist.

As for RF rules, I doubt you would have any problems if you put them behind a spoiler, but perhaps you know RF rules better than I, although I guess the mods could weigh in on that.

But I don't take RF as my lord and master so I won't be sticking its rules up on a pedestal to take as some unchallengeable guide for my private life

 

[Estro Felino]

Huh?
If France does not have a strict curriculum for all Middle Schools with inspectors to ensure that standards are kept, then that could only show us French standards, imo.

I am most saddened to know that Mr Patys showed images of Muhammud that could have upset Muslims, especially children.

Maybe it might have been different if naked cartoon images of Bahauallah had been shown? I can tell you that even decent pictures of either person would be strictly banned/moderated here on RF. Let that be your guide, Daniel.

I think it is a given that RF is molded on the Western values system,...which implies freedom of thought, gender equality, mutual respect.

As for religions...it is rightful to respect religious people here by not posting certain images. imho

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

People do provocative, silly or misguided things every day.
This teacher was murdered, and that should be condemned without reservation in my opinion.

Similarly, the attack on 2 Muslims should be condemned.

These are not justifiable actions in any way, shape or form. End of story.

Not to mention that the teacher FOREWARNED the students that would find the content to be offensive to leave. That suffices as a standard for me.

Why should they bend over backwards so much just because some people are too thin-skinned to be overly offended by mere pictures?

The problem is with the Muslims. They should monitor all that is potentially offensive to them and ignore/block it to prevent getting their feelings hurt.

 

[Lyndon]

if you ask me, the teacher was just asking for trouble, he should have known better, he's no hero, more of an idiot. Offending people is a fool's errand. No teacher at a public school should be using material that is going to greatly offend 10% of the population, calling it freedom of speech is ridiculous, its freedom to be ridiculously offensive, which should not be a right in a public school.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

As for religions...it is rightful to respect religious people here by not posting certain images. imho

Sometimes it's nigh-impossible to do so. Like, for example, I hate sharing my personal life, but for the sake of education and for ensuring my message is properly heard and understood, there are times when I make exceptions and do it. Hell, at one point we were talking about Valery Vita to make our point clear. Sometimes it's necessary.

The teacher was also doing it for educational purposes, and perhaps out of necessity to make his point crystal clear, displayed the images.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sometimes it's nigh-impossible to do so. Like, for example, I hate sharing my personal life, but for the sake of education and for ensuring my message is properly heard and understood, there are times when I make exceptions and do it. Hell, at one point we were talking about Valery Vita to make our point clear. Sometimes it's necessary.

The teacher was also doing it for educational purposes, and perhaps out of necessity to make his point crystal clear, displayed the images.

The context is different in my opinion.
Personally as a Christian...I think anyone is allowed to post cartoons about Christianity.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

And Muslims [and radical Islam] should also become like how Christians are nowadays. There was a time when Christian and Christianity was pretty much like how [radical] Muslims and [radical] Islam is nowadays. Islam and Muslims needs to go through the same reformation process Christianity did after which Christianity was purified from witch-hunt and other unacceptable traditions and practices.

 

[oldbadger]

People do provocative, silly or misguided things every day.
This teacher was murdered, and that should be condemned without reservation in my opinion.

Similarly, the attack on 2 Muslims should be condemned.

These are not justifiable actions in any way, shape or form. End of story.

Hang on!
I consider all three murders to be absolute atrocities!
Without Reservation!
My every post has shown that, LNM....

Now....... In threads before any of these events, folks were demanding that it is absolutely reasonable and part of free speech to stuff pictures that are highly offensive about groups of people on to the media. I was objecting to that principle. I still do.

You work in Teaching.
Do you think it is reasonable for middle school children (13 yrs) to be shown pictures of a naked Prophet in cartoon form when even the facial features of that person are protected? Is that reasonable?
I mean, would that be OK on RF?

I think Mr Paty's life could have been saved by a more reasonable government education policy.

 

[oldbadger]

It wouldn't change my view if it was a cartoon of Baha'u'llah naked or whatever else floats the boat of the cartoonist.

You'd come unstuck in the UK, then, if you did it yourself.
When people deliberately cause upset to minority groups it is just 'Hate-Action' at work. In some cases the hateful people actually want a repercussion because then they can really start waving their flags.

As for RF rules, I doubt you would have any problems if you put them behind a spoiler, but perhaps you know RF rules better than I, although I guess the mods could weigh in on that.

I hope not...... I think it's sick.
I think any kind of psycho-bullying is sick.

But I don't take RF as my lord and master so I won't be sticking its rules up on a pedestal to take as some unchallengeable guide for my private life

Are you honestly telling me that you support hate filled bigots who deliberately set out to upset minority groups, when you know that it could lead to .....what amounts to .... murder, even civil commotion, even worse?

OK.
But I'm not with you there, .....

 

[danieldemol]

Are you honestly telling me that you support hate filled bigots who deliberately set out to upset minority groups, when you know that it could lead to .....what amounts to .... murder, even civil commotion, even worse?

I don't see how a naked prophet leads to murder, unless you are talking about the murder of the cartoonist in which case I would suggest you are the hate filled bigot.

 

[oldbadger]

I think it is a given that RF is molded on the Western values system,...which implies freedom of thought, gender equality, mutual respect.

As for religions...it is rightful to respect religious people here by not posting certain images. imho

Absolutely....... of course.
My first experience of hate-provocation was in Prep-School (!2 years and under). A group of kids really despised a loner because he was a loner. They laughed at him, hid his personal property away, messed up his bed, put dirt on his clothese etc..... and when they discovered that he was sensitive about (and looked up to) his Father they had found the key to causing real hurt within the rules...... They called his Dad 'The road-sweeper' or 'The Dustman' and all laughed out loud.
One day the loner broke his calm, and punched one of the ring leasers very hard. The ring leader collapsed in to hysterical screaming, his friends called for the masters! What a dreadful thing had happened!
You can see where that went. The Loner had to be taken out of the school.
Not long afterwards, this bunch of very nasty little children decided upon their next victim.

I never forgot what happened to G--h-m ...........
I think that folks who psycho-bully, or support it, or who stand by are very poor people indeed.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't see how a naked prophet leads to murder, unless you are talking about the murder of the cartoonist in which case I would suggest you are the hate filled bigot.

Read the news.
And don't put opinions in my head for me, Daniel........

Do you support Psycho-Bullies?

 

[oldbadger]

Not to mention that the teacher FOREWARNED the students that would find the content to be offensive to leave. That suffices as a standard for me.

Honestly....... No, HS. No.
The education bodies of governments should have exact curriculums which are adhered to...... exactly.

In the UK inspectors visit schools to ensure that the standards are kept. Schools that run their own agenda get closed down or lose funding. There would be sackings if such an act was discovered here.
It's Psycho Bullying...... let's all wind up a group that we don't like and if there is any backlash we can all scream and shout and point....... 'Look! See? We we are right!. Moral Crusade can continue.

Why should they bend over backwards so much just because some people are too thin-skinned to be overly offended by mere pictures?

That's how most of France thinks, imo.
Let's wind up the group that we hate. When anything happened we can all become so moral.
It makes me feel a bit sick, actually.
And of course think the whole business of these three disgusting murders is dreadful.

The problem is with the Muslims. They should monitor all that is potentially offensive to them and ignore/block it to prevent getting their feelings hurt.

That's what the Muslim haters are saying.
France has some strange ideas, I think.

 

[oldbadger]

if you ask me, the teacher was just asking for trouble, he should have known better, he's no hero, more of an idiot. Offending people is a fool's errand. No teacher at a public school should be using material that is going to greatly offend 10% of the population, calling it freedom of speech is ridiculous, its freedom to be ridiculously offensive, which should not be a right in a public school.

We all feel that the two incidents and three murders are just horrific, as I'm sure that you do.

But schools which stuff pictures of naked cartooned religious, political or famous folks in front of 13 year children as part of their education would get some very serious attention from authorities here.

Psycho-Bullying........ makes me feel sick.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

if you ask me, the teacher was just asking for trouble, he should have known better, he's no hero, more of an idiot. Offending people is a fool's errand. No teacher at a public school should be using material that is going to greatly offend 10% of the population, calling it freedom of speech is ridiculous, its freedom to be ridiculously offensive, which should not be a right in a public school.

So?
How many teachers in any public school systems do you think are idiots at any given point of time?
How many deserve to die for it?

 

[Lyndon]

He doesn't deserve to die for it but he was an idiot, what did he think was going to happen. Dozens of Muslims have been arrested over this, how many white supremacists do you think have been arrested over the women stabbings, let me guess, none. They arrested the children that pointed out the teacher to the attacker, how did they break the law, they didn't.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hang on!
I consider all three murders to be absolute atrocities!
Without Reservation!
My every post has shown that, LNM....

Good. I believe you (for whatever that is worth).
There was just the one murder, but there was intent in all three cases, it seems.

Now....... In threads before any of these events, folks were demanding that it is absolutely reasonable and part of free speech to stuff pictures that are highly offensive about groups of people on to the media. I was objecting to that principle. I still do.

Which is fair enough. I personally think it's probably not the right time/thread to make that point in. It's akin to suggesting women shouldn't walk down a dark alleyway after a rape attack.
The advice might be sound in terms of safety, but it's very hard to separate what you're suggesting from victim blaming.

I'm not telling you not to make your point. Just giving you my opinion on it.

You work in Teaching.
Do you think it is reasonable for middle school children (13 yrs) to be shown pictures of a naked Prophet in cartoon form when even the facial features of that person are protected? Is that reasonable?

Just for clarity, I don't work in teaching any longer. I used to. It probably doesn't matter, but I'd rather be clear about such things to avoid confusion.

I personally wouldn't do it, but again, there is a difference here between general principle, this specific case, and the crime that occurred. Blending them is problematic, I believe. In the interests of trying to give an honest answer to your questions here, I need to break it up into a couple of parts, and hope you are brave/bored enough to listen to me ramble a little.

1. No, I wouldn't show something I thought some of my children (that I was teaching) would find offensive. End of story. Wouldn't matter if the offence was religious, or some other. To my kids (my 2 daughters), I definitely would, but the role of a teacher is different to that of a parent.

2. I have shown and read things to my kids that their parents found offensive. Specifically, I read Harry Potter to my class, and at least 1 family with very strong Christian beliefs complained. I made arrangements for that child and continued reading the book. In the end, the kid stayed in the class. I believe the mother found the book offensive, the father less so, and the child not at all. I wasn't their favourite teacher (although the kid loved me after that...)

3. If I showed something offensive to any kids I taught, they and their parents were well within their rights to complain. If my offense was egregious enough, I could lose my job. But that's it.

There is no equivocation possible on this. Killing people for causing you offence is barbaric and cannot be in any way excused. The person whose fault this was wielded a knife, and murdered a fellow human.
If you think the school curriculum should be changed, or the parents should have complained, then we can have that discussion. But I can't in any way shape or form consider that the victim was responsible in ANY way for his own death even IF I believed he acted in a foolish manner, and recklessly caused offense.

I mean, would that be OK on RF?

You might get a gentle warning for a first offense. Perhaps the teacher should have received that?

I think Mr Paty's life could have been saved by a more reasonable government education policy.

And it's here that we have a fundamental disagreement. His life could have been saved if the person to which he apparently gave offence did anything short of beheading him with a knife. End of story.

 

[danieldemol]

if you ask me, the teacher was just asking for trouble, he should have known better, he's no hero, more of an idiot. Offending people is a fool's errand. No teacher at a public school should be using material that is going to greatly offend 10% of the population, calling it freedom of speech is ridiculous, its freedom to be ridiculously offensive, which should not be a right in a public school.

Are you aware that the teacher forewarned those who might be offended and gave them the opportunity to leave?

This is about a group of people feeling entitled to decide what others should get to view or not because it makes them personally feel offended.

If the teacher was some hate filled bigot setting out to cheese people off why would he give those who might feel offended the right to pass?

You can decide not to view what you might find offensive but you can't deny those who don't feel offended the right to view something which is to them inoffensive

 

[lewisnotmiller]

He doesn't deserve to die for it but he was an idiot, what did he think was going to happen. Dozens of Muslims have been arrested over this, how many white supremacists do you think have been arrested over the women stabbings, let me guess, none. They arrested the children that pointed out the teacher to the attacker, how did they break the law, they didn't.

I'm assuming this is a follow up to my last post to you...
Some quick facts:
2 women were arrested in relation to the stabbing of 2 Muslims under the Eiffel Tower. That being the case, you should rethink your assertion around no-one being arrested for the stabbings. It's misinformation.

7 people have been charged in relation to the murder of the teacher. The 2 children arrested were allegedly paid money to identify the teacher. That clearly makes them part of a conspiracy.

Are you sure you want to take the role of defending a murderer, and trying to justify planned homicide? That would seem contrary to your beliefs.

If I might take the liberty of quoting myself here...

People do provocative, silly or misguided things every day.
This teacher was murdered, and that should be condemned without reservation in my opinion.

Similarly, the attack on 2 Muslims should be condemned.

These are not justifiable actions in any way, shape or form. End of story.