Part 2, an attack on creationism

[fantome profane]

I undertand what you are saying, but reason does not just ally with evidence. Philosophical arguments about God, freewill, consiousness, ethics, etc, there may be plenty of intuition and reason, but not much evidence.

The problem is that evidence will not lead us to a world view. We hold certain assumptions about the world, such as whether or not there is a purpose to things that happen, or if they are part of nature's indifferent mechanisms. Some arguments will resonate with some people and not with others, based on what their assumptions are.
You are right, "how do you know" is a fair question. However, when it is asked over and over again with the expectation that anything to be believed must be evidence based (when everyone knows it is faith-based), it gets tiresome.

Also, beliefs based on faith are not without reason. It is my finding that Christian theology is very deep and heavily based on reason. Try reading Romans; it is the best example of systematic theology in the NT.

Of course it was never my intention to suggest that reason cannot or does not form the basis of belief. What I am saying is that in a discussion such as this one you cannot base your arguments solely on intuition. If you have some reasons for your beliefs, with or without evidence, then I think this would be a good time to share them with us. I think that would be a much better response than complaining that it just your faith and you can’t prove it.

For example you commented that the real purpose of this universe is for us to build relationships. Could you please explain what your reasons are for believing this?

Personally I don’t believe that this is the case. And I will give you a reason for my beliefs, taking the evidence that we can see into account. In my experience anything that I can think of that I know was created for a purpose, it was not created billions and billions of times bigger than it was needed to fulfill that purpose.

(you will excuse me for now; I have to go read Romans)

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Of course it was never my intention to suggest that reason cannot or does not form the basis of belief. What I am saying is that in a discussion such as this one you cannot base your arguments solely on intuition. If you have some reasons for your beliefs, with or without evidence, then I think this would be a good time to share them with us. I think that would be a much better response than complaining that it just your faith and you can’t prove it.

Point taken

For example you commented that the real purpose of this universe is for us to build relationships. Could you please explain what your reasons are for believing this?

Personally I don’t believe that this is the case. And I will give you a reason for my beliefs, taking the evidence that we can see into account. In my experience anything that I can think of that I know was created for a purpose, it was not created billions and billions of times bigger than it was needed to fulfill that purpose.

(you will excuse me for now; I have to go read Romans)

Excellent point. I do believe there is a purpose for all things. The reason why I believe that relationships are of central purpose is because it is a central theme throughout the Bible. Our relationship with each other, and our relationship to God. Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

This resonates with me because really, what is most important when you are on your death bed, and what do people most regret. I'm betting that almost always it has to do with relationships.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Nick,

True; but as I mentioned before this is not unusual for many of our oldest documentation of ancient history. Our contemporary text books were thousands of years after the events they discribe. Does this invalidate them?

It is quite unusual for something which so many people take for granted as true. Contemporary textbooks do not claim to be the original sources of the information they provide: they are volumes which condense material from hundreds of sources over hundreds of time periods and put that information into terms that the common student can understand and retain. When a textbook says that George Washington crossed the Delaware river in the middle of the night to sneak-attack the British, that textbook is paraphrasing its information from original documents written by contemporaries of Washington, the soldiers in his company, and even Washington himself that detail the entire event. When a texbook says that the ancient Egyptians made sacrifices to their god Osiris in order that he might ensure an excellent inundation of the Nile, that texbook is getting its information from papers written by hundreds of archeologists and anthropologists who have been to Egypt and deciphered the heiroglyphics themselves.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? That's why the details of Jesus' life and the lives and deaths of his apostles are not included in history texbooks, because letters and books written by people hundreds of years after their subject matter has supposedly taken place, without having any earlier documentation to base their "findings" on, is not considered to be viable historical evidence.

I stand by my estimate, if anyone cares to catalog all of them.

I certainly don't have time to do that.

Alright, I'll give you a couple of verses that you can look up at your leisure if you'd like. All of that aside, your argument is intrinsically flawed. Even if the tales of genocide and death inflicted by God encompassed less than 1% of the Bible (which I hope you will see is not the case after these verses) the fact that God condones and inflicts this kind of evil AT ALL and at ANY POINT in the Bible should be enough.

Genesis 6:7, 17; 7:4, 7:21-23, 19:24, 20:3-7, 34:1-31
Exodus 11:7, 12:12, 12:29, 14:4-28, 17:13, 21:24-25, 23:27, 32:27-28, 32:35

Hopefully this will tide you over for now. Honestly I don't appreciate having to look all of this up for you. If you're going to claim something, you need to be able to back it up yourself--not make other people do your research for you to prove you wrong.

Are you sure you are not confusing your apostles? Here is what Paul said:

Actually, we were both right. Paul contradicts himself: In Romans 2:6, 13 Paul says that you need good works, and in Romans 4:13 he says that faith is enough. That's fine that you brought up James though--he is another good example that proves my point. The Bible contradicts itself time and time again on this subject.

 

[fantome profane]

I do believe there is a purpose for all things. The reason why I believe that relationships are of central purpose is because it is a central theme throughout the Bible. Our relationship with each other, and our relationship to God. Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

This resonates with me because really, what is most important when you are on your death bed, and what do people most regret. I'm betting that almost always it has to do with relationships.

Excellent, well done. I feel like this conversation is moving forward now. You have given a reason, and I think it is a valid one from your point of view. And I don’t want to badger you on this point, but I would like to respond and give you my take on this.

As to your second point first, I agree that for most (if not all) of us what is most important has to do with relationships. And I hope that most of us discover that long before we are on our deathbed. But I certainly would not equate what is most important to me to be the purpose of the universe. Nor would I say that what is important to the human race as a whole is the purpose of the universe. We are still a just a bunch of tiny little primates crawling around on a tiny little mud ball in a tiny little solar system in a tiny little galaxy in a tiny little corner of the universe. To say that our relationships are the purpose of the universe makes much less sense to me then saying that all of human history is for the purpose of a bit of mold growing on a bit of bread in my cupboard. (although some of those mold spores might disagree).

Of course human relationships are of primary importance to humans. And humans have been writing about the importance of human relationships from the beginning of human writing. It is hardly surprising that much of the Bible deals with human relationships. And much of the Bible gives good advice in dealing with human relationships, and much of the Bible gives terrible advice in dealing with human relationships. And this again is hardly surprising.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Nick,

It is quite unusual for something which so many people take for granted as true. Contemporary textbooks do not claim to be the original sources of the information they provide: they are volumes which condense material from hundreds of sources over hundreds of time periods and put that information into terms that the common student can understand and retain. When a textbook says that George Washington crossed the Delaware river in the middle of the night to sneak-attack the British, that textbook is paraphrasing its information from original documents written by contemporaries of Washington, the soldiers in his company, and even Washington himself that detail the entire event. When a texbook says that the ancient Egyptians made sacrifices to their god Osiris in order that he might ensure an excellent inundation of the Nile, that texbook is getting its information from papers written by hundreds of archeologists and anthropologists who have been to Egypt and deciphered the heiroglyphics themselves.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? That's why the details of Jesus' life and the lives and deaths of his apostles are not included in history texbooks, because letters and books written by people hundreds of years after their subject matter has supposedly taken place, without having any earlier documentation to base their "findings" on, is not considered to be viable historical evidence.

I am going to do some research on this and get back to you.

Alright, I'll give you a couple of verses that you can look up at your leisure if you'd like. All of that aside, your argument is intrinsically flawed. Even if the tales of genocide and death inflicted by God encompassed less than 1% of the Bible (which I hope you will see is not the case after these verses) the fact that God condones and inflicts this kind of evil AT ALL and at ANY POINT in the Bible should be enough.

Genesis 6:7, 17; 7:4, 7:21-23, 19:24, 20:3-7, 34:1-31
Exodus 11:7, 12:12, 12:29, 14:4-28, 17:13, 21:24-25, 23:27, 32:27-28, 32:35

Hopefully this will tide you over for now. Honestly I don't appreciate having to look all of this up for you. If you're going to claim something, you need to be able to back it up yourself--not make other people do your research for you to prove you wrong.

I really appreciate you doing that. I didn't actually expect anyone to invest the time into doing this, particularly because it would take a ton of time to do an exhaustive cataloging of all such verses. But as you rightly pointed out, it really doesn't matter how many verses there are, they need to be addressed. My point is that there is a lot of other content in the Bible. I may not be wise enough to explain every verse in the Bible (I have only been studying the Bible for a couple of years), but if 99% of it resonates with me, that is meaningful.

But since I am an engineer, I do have to point out that you have referenced 77 verses and there are approximately 31,000 verses in the Bible. That comes out to approximately 0.25%, which means you are a quarter of the way there.

Actually, we were both right. Paul contradicts himself: In Romans 2:6, 13 Paul says that you need good works, and in Romans 4:13 he says that faith is enough. That's fine that you brought up James though--he is another good example that proves my point. The Bible contradicts itself time and time again on this subject.

Ah Romans... I love Romans...

There is no contradiction. In 2:6,13, Paul is not referring to salvation. Paul is addressing Christians. Even those that go to Heaven are judged and not all in Heaven are equal.

Because you saw it as a contradiction, however, tells me that you are not trying to understand the Bible, you are simply hunting for accusations.

 

[Autodidact]

Especially when God commands it. Which He does. A lot. And don't forget, this is the only time he visited with us personally, and one of the few subjects he cared to address. It's not a minor theme, it's one of the major themes of the OT: This land which I gave to you, kill everyone in it. It does? Then why do you think slavery is wrong? You sure didn't get that from your faith.

You really have an excellent talent at mis-representing scripture.

I'm still enjoying our conversation. You raised several interesting points, and some of them resonate and hit home. However, you have attacked my credibility, and so I must rise to defend it. I said (1) One of the major themes of the old testament is "this land which I gave you, kill everyone in it." (2) The bible authorizes slavery. At this point, the issue is not whether you can dig up some apologetics to defend these passages, but merely whether this is indeed the case. So I will take the time to cite some of the passages that support my assertion. In turn, I will ask you to either support your aspersion on my accuracy, or withdraw it. Unfortunately, the response will take longer than the board allows, so I will break it up into more than one post.

I will not include God's own genocides, as against the Egyptians or all of humanity, but only those instances in which He commands the Israelites to kill another people, or in which they do so with His assistance and at His command. I have also omitted the many long passage describing battle journies, tactics, numbers of soldiers, and the like. Basically wars and battles take up a huge percentage of the OT. I have just cut to the conclusions: Kill them; we killed them. So these quoted passages represent a tiny percentage of the total text devoted to these subjects.

 

[Autodidact]

Genocide and Conquest I

Genesis 34: 2-29
Three days late, … two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male. 26 They put Hamor and his son Shechem to the sword and took Dinah from Shechem's house and left. 27 The sons of Jacob came upon the dead bodies and looted the city where [b] their sister had been defiled. 28 They seized their flocks and herds and donkeys and everything else of theirs in the city and out in the fields. 29 They carried off all their wealth and all their women and children, taking as plunder everything in the houses.
Leviticus 26
7 You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
Numbers 21
Israel made this vow to the LORD : "If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities." 3 The LORD listened to Israel's plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.
Israel, however, put him to the sword and took over his land from the Arnon to the Jabbok, but only as far as the Ammonites, because their border was fortified. 25 Israel captured all the cities of the Amorites and occupied them, including Heshbon and all its surrounding settlements.
Then they turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan and his whole army marched out to meet them in battle at Edrei.
34 The LORD said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you, with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon."
35 So they struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army, leaving them no survivors. And they took possession of his land.

Numbers 31
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

[Autodidact]

Genocide and Conquest II

Deuteronomy 2:33-34
33 the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed [a] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.
Deuteronomy 3:6
We completely destroyed [a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying [b] every city—men, women and children.
Deuteronomy 7:2
and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
Deuteronomy 20
in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Joshua 1
Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them—to the Israelites. 3 I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Great Sea [a] on the west. 5 No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.
Joshua 6
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Joshua 8
1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land. 2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city."
24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed [a] all who lived in Ai. 27 But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the LORD had instructed Joshua.
Joshua 10
8 The LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid of them; I have given them into your hand. Not one of them will be able to withstand you."
9 After an all-night march from Gilgal, Joshua took them by surprise. 10 The LORD threw them into confusion before Israel, who defeated them in a great victory at Gibeon. Israel pursued them along the road going up to Beth Horon and cut them down all the way to Azekah and Makkedah. 11 As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
20 So Joshua and the Israelites destroyed them (the Amorites) completely—almost to a man—but the few who were left reached their fortified cities.
28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors.
29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. 32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army—until no survivors were left.
34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.
36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.
38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.
Joshua 11
6 The LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid of them, because by this time tomorrow I will hand all of them over to Israel, slain.
7 So Joshua and his whole army came against them suddenly at the Waters of Merom and attacked them, 8 and the LORD gave them into the hand of Israel. They defeated them and pursued them all the way to Greater Sidon, to Misrephoth Maim, and to the Valley of Mizpah on the east, until no survivors were left. 9 Joshua did to them as the LORD had directed: He hamstrung their horses and burned their chariots.
10 At that time Joshua turned back and captured Hazor and put its king to the sword. (Hazor had been the head of all these kingdoms.) 11 Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed [b] them, not sparing anything that breathed, and he burned up Hazor itself.
12 Joshua took all these royal cities and their kings and put them to the sword. He totally destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded. 13 Yet Israel did not burn any of the cities built on their mounds—except Hazor, which Joshua burned. 14 The Israelites carried off for themselves all the plunder and livestock of these cities, but all the people they put to the sword until they completely destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed. 15 As the LORD commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua, and Joshua did it; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD commanded Moses.
16 So Joshua took this entire land: the hill country, all the Negev, the whole region of Goshen, the western foothills, the Arabah and the mountains of Israel with their foothills, 17 from Mount Halak, which rises toward Seir, to Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon. He captured all their kings and struck them down, putting them to death. 18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
[FONT=&quot] 21 At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, Debir and Anab, from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns. 22 No Anakites were left in Israelite territory; only in Gaza, Gath and Ashdod did any survive. 23 So Joshua took the entire land, just as the LORD had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal [/FONT][FONT=&quot]divisions. [/FONT]

 

[Autodidact]

Genocide and Conquest III

Judges 1
4 When Judah attacked, the LORD gave the Canaanites and Perizzites into their hands and they struck down ten thousand men at Bezek.
8 The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire.
9 After that, the men of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites living in the hill country, the Negev and the western foothills. 10 They advanced against the Canaanites living in Hebron (formerly called Kiriath Arba) and defeated Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai.
11 From there they advanced against the people living in Debir (formerly called Kiriath Sepher). 12 And Caleb said, "I will give my daughter Acsah in marriage to the man who attacks and captures Kiriath Sepher." 13 Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, took it; so Caleb gave his daughter Acsah to him in marriage.
17 Then the men of Judah went with the Simeonites their brothers and attacked the Canaanites living in Zephath, and they totally destroyed [c] the city. Therefore it was called Hormah. [d] 18 The men of Judah also took [e] Gaza, Ashkelon and Ekron—each city with its territory.
Judges 3
28 "Follow me," he ordered, "for the LORD has given Moab, your enemy, into your hands." So they followed him down and, taking possession of the fords of the Jordan that led to Moab, they allowed no one to cross over. 29 At that time they struck down about ten thousand Moabites, all vigorous and strong; not a man escaped.
31 After Ehud came Shamgar son of Anath, who struck down six hundred Philistines with an oxgoad.
Judges 7
During that night the LORD said to Gideon, "Get up, go down against the camp, because I am going to give it into your hands. 22 When the three hundred trumpets sounded, the LORD caused the men throughout the camp to turn on each other with their swords. The army fled to Beth ****tah toward Zererah as far as the border of Abel Meholah near Tabbath. 23 Israelites from Naphtali, Asher and all Manasseh were called out, and they pursued the Midianites. 24 Gideon sent messengers throughout the hill country of Ephraim, saying, "Come down against the Midianites and seize the waters of the Jordan ahead of them as far as Beth Barah."
So all the men of Ephraim were called out and they took the waters of the Jordan as far as Beth Barah.
Judges 8
Judges 11
21 "Then the LORD, the God of Israel, gave Sihon and all his men into Israel's hands, and they defeated them. Israel took over all the land of the Amorites who lived in that country, 22 capturing all of it from the Arnon to the Jabbok and from the desert to the Jordan
28 Thus Midian was subdued before the Israelites and did not raise its head again.
Judges 18
"Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful."
6 The priest answered them, "Go in peace. Your journey has the LORD's approval."
7 So the five men left and came to Laish, where they saw that the people were living in safety, like the Sidonians, unsuspecting and secure. And since their land lacked nothing, they were prosperous. 8 When they returned to Zorah and Eshtaol, their brothers asked them, "How did you find things?"
9 They answered, "Come on, let's attack them! We have seen that the land is very good. Aren't you going to do something? Don't hesitate to go there and take it over. 10 When you get there, you will find an unsuspecting people and a spacious land that God has put into your hands, a land that lacks nothing whatever.
27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.
Judges 20
34 Then ten thousand of Israel's finest men made a frontal attack on Gibeah. The fighting was so heavy that the Benjamites did not realize how near disaster was. 35 The LORD defeated Benjamin before Israel, and on that day the Israelites struck down 25,100 Benjamites, all armed with swords. (Benjamites were disobedient Israelites.)
Judges 21
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."

 

[Autodidact]

Genocide and Conquest IV

1 Samuel
that day the LORD thundered with loud thunder against the Philistines and threw them into such a panic that they were routed before the Israelites. 11 The men of Israel rushed out of Mizpah and pursued the Philistines, slaughtering them along the way to a point below Beth Car.
11 The next day Saul separated his men into three divisions; during the last watch of the night they broke into the camp of the Ammonites and slaughtered them until the heat of the day. Those who survived were scattered, so that no two of them were left together.
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'
20 Then Saul and all his men assembled and went to the battle. They found the Philistines in total confusion, striking each other with their swords. 21 Those Hebrews who had previously been with the Philistines and had gone up with them to their camp went over to the Israelites who were with Saul and Jonathan. 22 When all the Israelites who had hidden in the hill country of Ephraim heard that the Philistines were on the run, they joined the battle in hot pursuit. 23 So the LORD rescued Israel that day, and the battle moved on beyond Beth Aven.
8 Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt.) 9 Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes.
47 After Saul had assumed rule over Israel, he fought against their enemies on every side: Moab, the Ammonites, Edom, the kings [h] of Zobah, and the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he inflicted punishment on them. [i] 48 He fought valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, delivering Israel from the hands of those who had plundered them.
1 Samuel 15
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'
7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.
2 Samuel 8 1 In the course of time, David defeated the Philistines and subdued them, and he took Metheg Ammah from the control of the Philistines.
2 David also defeated the Moabites. He made them lie down on the ground and measured them off with a length of cord. Every two lengths of them were put to death, and the third length was allowed to live. So the Moabites became subject to David and brought tribute.
3 Moreover, David fought Hadadezer son of Rehob, king of Zobah, when he went to restore his control along the Euphrates River. 4 David captured a thousand of his chariots, seven thousand charioteers [a] and twenty thousand foot soldiers. He hamstrung all but a hundred of the chariot horses. 5 When the Arameans of Damascus came to help Hadadezer king of Zobah, David struck down twenty-two thousand of them. 6 He put garrisons in the Aramean kingdom of Damascus, and the Arameans became subject to him and brought tribute. The LORD gave David victory wherever he went.
13 And David became famous after he returned from striking down eighteen thousand Edomites [f] in the Valley of Salt.
2 Samuel 10
13 Then Joab and the troops with him advanced to fight the Arameans, and they fled before him.
17 When David was told of this, he gathered all Israel, crossed the Jordan and went to Helam. The Arameans formed their battle lines to meet David and fought against him. 18 But they fled before Israel, and David killed seven hundred of their charioteers and forty thousand of their foot soldiers.
1 Kings 20
a prophet came to Ahab king of Israel and announced, "This is what the LORD says: 'Do you see this vast army? I will give it into your hand today, and then you will know that I am the LORD.'
28 The man of God came up and told the king of Israel, "This is what the LORD says: 'Because the Arameans think the LORD is a god of the hills and not a god of the valleys, I will deliver this vast army into your hands, and you will know that I am the LORD.' "
29 For seven days they camped opposite each other, and on the seventh day the battle was joined. The Israelites inflicted a hundred thousand casualties on the Aramean foot soldiers in one day. 30 The rest of them escaped to the city of Aphek, where the wall collapsed on twenty-seven thousand of them.
2 Kings 10
17 When Jehu came to Samaria, he killed all who were left there of Ahab's family; he destroyed them, according to the word of the LORD spoken to Elijah.
25 As soon as Jehu had finished making the burnt offering, he ordered the guards and officers: "Go in and kill them; let no one escape." So they cut them down with the sword. The guards and officers threw the bodies out and then entered the inner shrine of the temple of Baal.
2 Chronicles 14
12 The LORD struck down the Cu****es before Asa and Judah. The Cu****es fled, 13 and Asa and his army pursued them as far as Gerar. Such a great number of Cu****es fell that they could not recover; they were crushed before the LORD and his forces. The men of Judah carried off a large amount of plunder. 14 They destroyed all the villages around Gerar, for the terror of the LORD had fallen upon them. They plundered all these villages, since there was much booty there. 15 They also attacked the camps of the herdsmen and carried off droves of sheep and goats and camels.

 

[Autodidact]

And slavery will have to wait until I have more time.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Nick,

But as you rightly pointed out, it really doesn't matter how many verses there are, they need to be addressed. My point is that there is a lot of other content in the Bible.

That's true, and the Bible has a lot of good to say. Some would warn against throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but at the other end of the spectrum, you can't just let the baby sit in that lukewarm water until it rots.

The facts are these: The Bible has some not-so-nice, not-so-peaceful messages in the OT that need to be dealt with. You can't treat them like your crazy Uncle Harvey who no one talks about and everyone hopes won't show up at Christmas. You can't just sweep them under the rug, because they'll come back to bite you. Most Christians believe that the Bible was Divinely Inspired--that means that whatever is in that book was put there by the Christian god.

There are many ways to safely secure that baby and rid yourself of the nasty water, however. There are several religions that teach many of the peaceful, loving messages that can be found in the NT, without all that OT baggage. Buddhism is one of them, and Buddha also predates Jesus by about 500 years.

I do have to point out that you have referenced 77 verses and there are approximately 31,000 verses in the Bible.

First of all, I only got through the first two books of the Bible because that's all I had time for. Second of all, the initial assertion concerned the Old Testament only, not the entire Bible.

A better indicator, then, would be to analyze the number of verses within the books that I got through. Genesis and Exodus together have 2,746 verses in all. the verses I provided account for 2.79% of those first two books in the Bible, or 3% if we're rounding. Let's also keep in mind that the verses I provided dealt specifically with genocide--there are several other categories of atrocities that the good Lord commits which I did not include in my count.

There is no contradiction. In 2:6,13, Paul is not referring to salvation. Paul is addressing Christians. Even those that go to Heaven are judged and not all in Heaven are equal.

Because you saw it as a contradiction, however, tells me that you are not trying to understand the Bible, you are simply hunting for accusations.

Here's what Romans 2:6, 13 says:

"Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"

I don't see how the fact that he is addressing Christians makes any difference here. He is blatantly telling them that they have to "do good" and "follow the law" if they want to be considered just in the sight of god.

Its no matter. There are several other examples of this contradiction that I can find for you if you still desire them.

As for my accusation hunting: a hunt presents a challenge. One need not venture further than the second chapter of Genesis should they wish to find inconsistency and contradiction.

 

[Autodidact]

Take the old testament. Take out all the passages describing, commanding or advocating war, genocide and conquest. Now take out all the passages commanding and prescribing animal sacrifice, which you no longer practice. Now take out all the passages containing commandments that you have decided don't apply any more, like prohibitions against eating bats and barbecued spare ribs. Now take out all the stuff you don't really believe is true, like the sun stopping in the sky, or a worldwide flood (unless you do believe those things are true, in which case you're wrong). What do you have left?

 

[Wandered Off]

A lot of begats?

 

[Autodidact]

What does the Bible say about slavery? Here are most of the relevant passages:

Leviticus 25
44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus 20
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Exodus 21
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.

Exodus 21
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death….When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

26"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
27"And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
… 32"If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
Leviticus 19
20 Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free.

Deuteronomy 5
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Deuteronomy 24
7 If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die; so you shall purge the evil from among you.

Genesis 17
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Numbers 31
Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was …
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.
41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.
… From the Israelites' half, Moses selected one out of every fifty persons and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle.


Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

1 Timothy 6
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

Luke 12 (Jesus talking)
46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will (AX)receive many lashes,
48but the one who did not (AY)know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Titus 2
9Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

1 Peter 2
18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

The picture that you get is that there are different kinds of slavery in the Bible, including a type of bond slavery for Jews that is close to employment, including sexual slavery and chattel slavery, for foreigners. Foreign slaves are property in every way, and often included in lists of property, such as in the ten commandments. Slaves could be captured in war, and some of these were given in tribute to God's priests. Jesus endorsed these customs, and he and his disciples repeatedly exhorted slaves to be content and obedient. Slavery is never prohibited or condemned.

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[Autodidact]

This is not anything unsual about ancient history. Many of our historical documents are copies that are many centuries older than either the original document, or a the events covered.

These are the originals. This is the oldest we have, and the first mention, by a Christian with every motivation to emphasize any martyrdom, fails to mentions it.

This topic doesn't seem very productive unless you have a significant reason to believe he was not martyred.

Usually the person who makes an assertion has the burden of supporting it. Do you have anything stronger, anything roughly contemporaneous, or closer in time than what I gave? If not, I think it's safe to conclude that he was not.

Don't we all have faith in something?

Depends on what you mean by "faith." It's an ambiguous term. There is a big difference between faith based on evidence, and faith without or despite it.

We each have to figure that out for ourselves. My faith tells me to love those who are not Christian believers, give a defense for what I believe and do not treat them as foolish.

Really? Where does the Bible say that?

I can tell you why I believe what I believe, why it satisfies my intuition and why my personal experience has strengthened my faith. But that doesn't mean it is going to resonate for you, but there are people that it may.

Yes, I understand. I'm trying to get you to look at what you sincerely believe are those reasons, to see whether they stand up. For example, you say that the theology makes sense to you. I'm arguing that it often doesn't, and when it doesn't, you just reject that part.

I would like you to consider the possibility that the reasons it comports with your intuition should be a bit suspicious. Is it a coincidence that what most people find comports with their intuition just happens to match up with what most of the people around them believe?

Which is better? We are not given the tools to resolve this. We may find out at the end of times...

And we may not. I'm betting on getting it right now.

Good point. Although I would content that over 50% of the NT discusses ethics and expounds on what it means to "love ones neighbor".

I just think it would have been great if it had just said, "everyone," or defined "neighbor" to mean everyone. That's because it's very clear that the OT sets forth a tribal religion, in which one only needs to deal ethically with members of one's tribe, and it's O.K. to kill, rape, kidnap and enslave everyone else. This type of attitude is devastating in the modern world. It would have been excellent if the NT had clearly and explicity rejected this view.
btw some other religions do make it clear that one must have compassion to everyone, not just one's literal neighbors.

But to your point, because it is on the OT it is significant. I don't have all of the answers, but one way of looking at it is that God often wipes out communities because they are barbaric and exremely immoral in order to keep that community from spreading. It may be for the betterment of future generations. Sort of analogous to wiping out cancer.

It's not true, however. It would help if you would go back and read it. Very rarely does it mention anything they did wrong, and when it does, it's usually (1) worshipping a different God (2) refusing to surrender to the Hebrews. The poor Laishians are specifically described as "a peaceful and unsuspecting people." What happpened to them? They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. If you read the whole thing, it's clear that the theme is that God wants to give this land to His people, so ethnic cleansing is necessary to clear it for them.

In any case, the question isn't whether you can scrape together some apologetics to justify worshiping a genocidal war God. The question is whether the whole thing, the big picture, makes sense. Is this the wisest, most compassionate and logical religious system? God appears once, to one people, and what he tells them is: Kill, kill, kill. Are you saying that makes sense to you?

In order to look at things from the perspective, one has to recognize the authority of God and His dominion over our lives and deaths.

So are you saying this is moral? That genocide is moral and correct, if God commands it? What do you think suicide bombers believe on this question?

They may be considered "bad things" to you, however, we do not have God's perspective and responsbility in how He manages His creation.

You don't consider genocide and infanticide to be bad?

Because I believe God is just.

So you think that ordering a soldier to stab a baby to death with his sword is just?

Wow, what an extraordinary distortion of scripture. You make it sound like I have some directive to kill babies as part of my loving them.

Remember: the Israelites only killed all the men. Moses told them God was angry because they had failed to kill the babies as well. Who's distorting here?

 

[Autodidact]

What is your source? I would bet they mean "unexpected", not "non-sensical".

From wiki:
Kierkegaard -"Truth is Subjectivity"

A fideist position of this general sort — that God's existence cannot be certainly known, and that the decision to accept faith is neither founded on, nor needs, rational justification — may be found in the writings of Søren Kierkegaard and his followers in Christian existentialism. Many of Kierkegaard's works, including Fear and Trembling, are under pseudonyms; they may represent the work of fictional authors whose views correspond to hypothetical positions, not necessarily those held by Kierkegaard himself.
In Fear and Trembling, Kierkegaard focused on Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac. The New Testament apostles repeatedly argued that Abraham's act was an admirable display of faith. To the eyes of a non-believer, however, it must necessarily have appeared to be an unjustifiable attempted murder, perhaps the fruit of an insane delusion. Kierkegaard used this example to focus attention on the problem of faith in general. He ultimately affirmed that to believe in the incarnation of Christ, in God made flesh, was to believe in the "absolute paradox", since it implies that an eternal, perfect being would become a simple human. Reason cannot possibly comprehend such a phenomenon; therefore, one can only believe in it by taking a "leap of faith".



The statement "Credo quia absurdum" ("I believe because it is absurd"), often attributed to Tertullian, is sometimes cited as an example of such a view in the Church Fathers, but this appears to be a misquotation from Tertullian's De Carne Christi (External Link: On the Flesh of Christ). What he actually says in DCC 5 is "... the Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed, because it is absurd."

 

[Autodidact]

Not just reason, you have been asking for evidence. You have made many points of special revelation vs. evidence. And I given many reasons why I believe what I do, they just don't seem to matter to you.

No, I've been asking: How do you know? I assert that without evidence, you can't. You have not offered anything in refutation of this position. In brief, as I said, your position seems to be "I just know it; I really really do." Which is pretty darned weak.

I don't think all faiths are equal. You keep arguing "how do you know you are right if there are a lots of people that believe something different", as if it doesn't apply to you as well. You talk as if you are on the intellectual high ground, yet there are many things that you believe that don't make sense with me.

Of course it applies to me. The difference is that I do have a basis on which to differentiate whether we know something: evidence. Remember, this thread is about creationism. (a long time back in this thread) I know that 6000 years ago special creation didn't happen because of the evidence.

Define meaningful.

Purposeful. Significant. Resonant. Important. Worthwhile.

I was not attacking you, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was telling you how you were coming across to me. It's relevant because we all need to be introspective of whether we are being objective or if our emotional engagement is staining our point of view.

But what is of greater interest is: was I right or wrong?

You are assuming I take all of these things literally.

Of course you don't. BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE SENSE. That's my point. You claim that you believe this religion because it makes sense, but it doesn't, so you don't. Except when you do.

Why are you assuming what I have and have not read? I guess I am just a brainwashed, uneducated Christian ...

I'm not assuming anything--I try to avoid unjustified assumptions and prejudice. You told me you hadn't read them. No, if you think that having failed to read the holy texts of other religions makes you brainwashed and uneducated, you might want to read them. I just thought it was weird to decide that this one book makes sense (despite the talking donkeys and genocidal wars) without reading some others. I have read others that I find more insightful and helpful. For example,
In Sikhism, God—termed Vāhigurū—is formless, eternal, and unobserved: niraṅkār, akāl, and alakh. The beginning of the first composition of Sikh scripture is the figure "1"—signifying the universality of God. It states that God is omnipresent and infinite, and is signified by the term ēk ōaṅkār[5]. Sikhs believe that prior to creation, all that existed was God and his hukam (will or order).When God willed, the entire cosmos was created. From these beginnings, God nurtured "enticement and attachment" to māyā, or the human perception of reality.
I find that a lot closer to expressing the reality of God, if any, than the rather anthropomorphic, jealous, vindictive, personal God of the Bible.

I think Christian theology makes a lot more sense than believing I am a programmed, automaton organism, that self-replicating, evolving enzymes managed to accidently form themselves out of muck, and that the Universe, in all its order, mystically popped into existence for no reason.

Me too. Who believes that?

I find it strange that you don't see how the social and economic differences between now and 1500 BC doesn't change what makes sense for society and what doesn't. There are some principles that always hold true: do not murder, steal, etc. Those obviously do not change with time. However, there were cultures where slavery was actually beneficial for the slave. In some cases in allows them to live in a wealthy household instead of living in poverty. The Bible explicitly states that you are to love those that you have authority over, and that was the intended ethics with slavery. That was not always the case (like when the jews were enslaved in Egypt, and God made it clear their treatment was unethical).

Of course they do. That's why the Bible is absolutely useless.
Right, I'm sure that if you're sitting under your own vine and fig tree, watching your flocks and minding your own business, worshipping Baal on Sundays, and the Hebrews swoop in and kill your husband and son and kidnap you as the third concubine of the murderer, to be owned for the rest of your life and left as property to his children, it's a big improvement. That's the slavery described in the Bible.
The only problem with the Jews being slaves is that it was the Jews. God had no problem with anyone else being slaves.
How do you tell which is which? For example, apparently you think the prohibition against male homosexuality doesn't change with time, while the authorization of polygamy does. Why?

In a way it does. Livestock was central to the economy and sacrificing an animal always had an economic consequence. It was a sacrifice to the person's livelihood. It demonstrated their priorities (spirituality over materialism), and hence enboldened their relationship to God.

And conveniently, the priests get a nice lamb dinner out of the deal. Kind of like proto-Pat Robertson.

It makes no sense in today's world, but I am certain if you lived in 1500 BC. this would all make sense to you.

But I don't. We've learned a lot since then, no thanks to the Bible.

Your depiction of it doesn't makse sense, and that is what I was joking about.

Show us what I said that was not correct.

Wow, no one has ever called me Mr. Soapdish.

And how is Mrs. Soapdish?

I submit that it does not make sense to you and that you have a very different filter for how your interpret things than I do.

It doesn't sound like a lot of it makes sense to you. If it did, you would take it literally, wouldn't you?

 

[Autodidact]

I would like it if you told me about your life, how you live it and what you believe.

Thank you. That's a nice question, although possibly not of general interest to our readers. Maybe you could be more specific?

Short version:
I'm 52 years old, a lesbian, and an atheist. I have 3 children. The oldest is 18 and rocks the world. The youngest is 8. I adopted her through the Department of Human Services solely because this is the only life I have and I wanted to accomplish something significant and positive with it. A Jewish tradition is that by saving a single human life we save the entire world. Being her mom is very, very hard. I work for a non-profit and the funnest thing about my job is that I get paid to help people.

I have a scientific orientation to life. I try to overcome our natural tendencies to believe weird things, as Michael Shermer says, by being aware of them and using the scientific method as much as possible. I believe that, objectively, human beings enjoy being kind. I don't think there are any shortcuts, and the best way to my own happiness is by practicing good morals. As Aristotle says, virtue is the science of happiness. Here is a set of quotes that sums up my ethics:

The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
--Dalai Lama
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
--Dalai Lama again
When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
--Abraham Lincoln

Since I strongly suspect that this is the only ticket I get to the great ride of life, I try to make the most of it in terms of having fun, learning, and being nice to people. I cherish opportunities to help other people when I find them. I do not think there is anything immoral with enjoying myself, as long as I'm not hurting anyone else.

I have a girlfriend who is the kindest, most thoughtful and compassionate person I have ever met. That's why I love her so much. Also she's a cutie. Knowing she loves me changes me and every moment of my life, transforms my existence, my house, my time, my very being. If I have faith in anything, it is in the love we share. I cannot imagine anything that anyone would say that could convince me that our love is wrong. Frankly when I read someone saying that it is, it makes me laugh, because anyone who would think that has no clue about what right and wrong is all about. If love is wrong, then...well, love isn't wrong, and no one can convince me it is.

To get into metaphysical naturalism would take us far off track, and would be too much to cover. For me it's basically epistemelogical. If I cannot perceive it, if no one can perceive it, what difference does it make? It's the functional equivalent of not existing. And that's enough for now.

 

[Autodidact]

First off, I don't believe Dante's divine comedy is a Biblical depiction of hell.

Also, I don't profess to have any knowledge of who is separated from God and who is not. I personally believe that Jesus ministers to souls that die, and perhaps they are given an opportunity for salvation. I find it hard to believe that someone who truly serves humanity and appeals to a higher power will end in destruction.

I thought salvation was through faith? I'm confused. Maybe I don't know what you meant by "salvation"?