Pascal's Wager?

[LuisDantas]

I never said this life is nothing.

Yet you consistently expect it to be a defeated concern, oddly enough.

and I more than assume a next life.

True that.

 

[Thief]

I see, labels are just labels but sounds like you are a deist.

I was once a theist so I understand why many believe in a higher power.
It brings comfort even if what you are seeking comfort from, turns out to be something imagined.

Nay...my expectations are quite different.

Imagination is the problem solving part of the mind.
There are no problems you can resolve without your imagination.

I do not imagine there is a God.
Imagination is the tool used to determine the explanation for all I see around me.

There is a God.

 

[Thief]

Yet you consistently expect it to be a defeated concern, oddly enough.



True that.

Dust you are ...dust you will be.

 

[Deidre]

Nay...my expectations are quite different.

Imagination is the problem solving part of the mind.
There are no problems you can resolve without your imagination.

I do not imagine there is a God.
Imagination is the tool used to determine the explanation for all I see around me.

There is a God.

what makes you so sure?

 

[Thief]

what makes you so sure?

The stars above...the earth below my feet.....all things around me.

Science proclaims cause and effect.
I agree.

At the point of singularity.....I made a choice.
Spirit first?....or substance.

I chose Spirit.

otherwise substance is self motivating and contrary to what science believes.
AND all of life is dependent on chemistry and will fail to dust.

I reiterate......Spirit first......as Creator.

 

[Deidre]

The stars above...the earth below my feet.....all things around me.

Science proclaims cause and effect.
I agree.

At the point of singularity.....I made a choice.
Spirit first?....or substance.

I chose Spirit.

otherwise substance is self motivating and contrary to what science believes.
AND all of life is dependent on chemistry and will fail to dust.

I reiterate......Spirit first......as Creator.

I see. But science isn't afraid to say 'I don't know.' With all due respect, sounds like you are speaking of the 'god of the gaps.'
Which is fine, that is up to you. But, seems to me mankind is afraid for want of a better word to simply say...'I don't know,' as it relates to what caused the Big Bang, or any other mystery of the universe. So 'God did it' seems like a comforting conclusion to alleviate the discomfort of 'I don't know.'

Logically, I'm an atheist, as I don't believe there is proof of a deity, but...I hold an open mind as to the potential that might exist. Or Potential. However you look at it.

 

[Thief]

I see. But science isn't afraid to say 'I don't know.' With all due respect, sounds like you are speaking of the 'god of the gaps.'
Which is fine, that is up to you. But, seems to me mankind is afraid for want of a better word to simply say...'I don't know,' as it relates to what caused the Big Bang, or any other mystery of the universe.

Logically, I'm an atheist, as I don't believe there is proof of a deity, but...I hold an open mind as to the potential that might exist. Or Potential. However you look at it.

Where science fails...there is faith.

I believe....and for cause of science.
Not for scripture....not for congregation....not for dogma...

The science would insist on cause and effect.....so do I.
Science cannot do the equation or the experiment.

I can.

Science cannot place the singularity in a petri dish.
I can place the item in my mind.

An empty glass will do nothing.
My mind can resolve.

 

[Deidre]

Where science fails...there is faith.

I believe....and for cause of science.
Not for scripture....not for congregation....not for dogma...

Science cannot place the singularity in a petri dish.
I can place it the item in my mine.

An empty glass will do nothing.
My mind can resolve.

But science hasn't failed. Not yet having answers to what caused the Big Bang, isn't 'failure.'

Your idea of a god. Do you believe he/it is loving? Or rather indifferent to its creation?

 

[McBell]

The science would insist on cause and effect.....so do I.

dishonest is it not, to omit the fact that as soon as your cause and effect gets you to god, you ditch cause and effect like yesterdays garbage?

 

[Deidre]

This is sooo good...please take a moment to read it.

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

 

[sun rise]

This is sooo good...please take a moment to read it.

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

It's a fun piece but logically incomplete. There is a statement

He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth.

This equates goodness with truth which is reasonable but it depends on the definition of "truth". If what is meant is intellectual truth, then it's limited. If truth is defined as the truth of God's nature, then it's a different kind of truth.

I assume the article is about the former and then intellectual truth does not to me count for much. Having a compassionate, loving heart and doing one's best to to express it in every life counts for quite a bit.

The second point that article gets wrong is the same point Biblical literalists get wrong - assuming a story is to be taken as literally true. To me, the story is symbolic of a state of heart which, for example, the Buddha did in renouncing his kingdom to discover the truth. It's very normal to consider one's children above all other children. But a completely compassionate person would consider all children in the world to be equally valuable and thus he or she would have destroyed his sense of his own child's exclusive worth. He would have thus sacrificed his attachment to his child as special. This is obviously a personal interpretation.

Then another error the article makes is to have a particular view of good and evil assigning certain behaviors as evil. First this is using the Christian Bible and not considering other scriptures such as the Gita. But more importantly it's assuming that certain actions are evil. In Eastern systems, there are no unexplained events because Karma is part of the equation. The Bible expresses this as reaping what one sows. And this is the human analog of the law of action and reaction. With reincarnation evil actions will either be paid for in a future life or perhaps are providing balance for other evil actions in past lives.

But there's another perspective and that is that our view of such things is limited. There's a story from the Quran that illustrates this:

The Quran states that they meet at the junction of the two seas and Moses asks for permission to accompany the Servant of God so Moses can learn "right knowledge of what [he has] been taught".[12] The Servant informs him in a stern manner that their knowledge is of different nature and that "Surely you [Moses] cannot have patience with me. And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"[13] Moses promises to be patient and obey him unquestioningly, and they set out together. After they board a ship, the Servant of God damages the vessel. Forgetting his oath, Moses says, "Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing." The Servant reminds Moses of his warning, "Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me?" and Moses pleads not to be rebuked.

Next, the Servant of God kills a young man. Moses again cries out in astonishment and dismay, and again the Servant reminds Moses of his warning, and Moses promises that he will not violate his oath again, and that if he does he will excuse himself from the Servant's presence. They then proceed to a town where they are denied hospitality. This time, instead of harming anyone or anything, the Servant of God restores a decrepit wall in the village. Yet again Moses is amazed and violates his oath for the third and last time, asking why the Servant did not at least exact "some recompense for it!"

The Servant of God replies, "This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience. Many acts which seem to be evil, malicious or somber, actually are merciful. The boat was damaged to prevent its owners from falling into the hands of a king who seized every boat by force. And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them. God will replace the child with one better in purity, affection and obedience. As for the restored wall, the Servant explained that underneath the wall was a treasure belonging to two helpless orphans whose father was a righteous man. As God's envoy, the Servant restored the wall, showing God's kindness by rewarding the piety of the orphans' father, and so that when the wall becomes weak again and collapses, the orphans will be older and stronger and will take the treasure that belongs to them."

 

[LuisDantas]

Dust you are ...dust you will be.

You really don't understand...

 

[Thief]

But science hasn't failed. Not yet having answers to what caused the Big Bang, isn't 'failure.'

Your idea of a god. Do you believe he/it is loving? Or rather indifferent to its creation?

I didn't say it failed.....I said it cannot.
I believe in science.....cause and effect.
Science simply cannot perform the experiment to satisfy the non-believer.

The non-believer wants 'proof'.
There won't be any.
No photo, no fingerprint, no equation, and no experiment.
Such things simply won't happen.

So all you have to work with is the manner of thought and feeling which is your mind and heart.
If your mind and heart cannot find the belief.....too bad.

You would then be only what your chemistry allows you to be.
And then it will fail.
Dust you are....dust you will be.

 

[Thief]

You really don't understand...

I would say as much of you.

 

[Thief]

This is sooo good...please take a moment to read it.

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

I took a quick glance at the link.

Maybe It hasn't dawned on the participants here.
God is indeed selecting who and who won't walk in heaven.
The peace must be maintained.

I cannot assure anyone.....including myself....who will walk among the angelic.
I can be sure that denial won't work.

Given the choice between someone who does good things and believes....
and someone who does good things and does not believe.....

I suspect the motivation counts for something.

 

[Deidre]

I took a quick glance at the link.

Maybe It hasn't dawned on the participants here.
God is indeed selecting who and who won't walk in heaven.
The peace must be maintained.

I cannot assure anyone.....including myself....who will walk among the angelic.
I can be sure that denial won't work.

Given the choice between someone who does good things and believes....
and someone who does good things and does not believe.....

I suspect the motivation counts for something.

If you do good things to serve others, etc...if one is truly selfless when doing so, why would believing in a deity suddenly make those acts that much more virtuous?

 

[McBell]

I took a quick glance at the link.

Maybe It hasn't dawned on the participants here.
God is indeed selecting who and who won't walk in heaven.
The peace must be maintained.

I cannot assure anyone.....including myself....who will walk among the angelic.
I can be sure that denial won't work.

Given the choice between someone who does good things and believes....
and someone who does good things and does not believe.....

I suspect the motivation counts for something.

So it is a crap shoot?

I mean, you can do all the good things in the world and if you picked the wrong god....

 

[Windwalker]

Looking at it from this new perspective, I can't help but wonder if Pascal was right, after all. If I'm undecided...would it be so bad to live my life as if a god existed? Pascal was pretty specific as to ''which'' god, though. He was a Christian man, and favored Christianity of course.

So, is it foolish if one is undecided, to buy into Pascal's Wager? What do you think?

There are of course problems associated with Pascal's Wager applied in a modern context, because typically to "live for God", is meant to follow the teachings of the whatever-flavor-of-day church is holding that over you. Is that really "living for God"? I would argue a hearty no, not at all. You have to look at what the intent if. Do you want to fill that spiritual void? Then pursue that. But it doesn't mean convert to a religion! It certainly can if that's helpful to some, but then to actually deconvert from a religion, to reject it's dogmas and outdated beliefs may actually be the correct spiritual path, one that is more spiritual than simply remaining in religion. If the religion puts you in shackles, then that is in fact not "living for God" at all. It's being a prisoner to fear, such as "What if I'm wrong and get sent to hell," sort of sad narcissistic save-your-butt measure. That's not spiritual at all, in any way.

I would say understand the spiritual in yourself and the world in whatever way attracts you and supports that growth in yourself. Don't look for it from outside yourself, in some body to "tell" you what to believe in, and whatnot. The only true spirituality is one that comes from within us, and all the external teachings are simply tools to help us transform ourselves from within. They are not the truth you believe in and the rest happens magically somehow. You can have "God", without God, to put an accurate twist to this. I actually see atheism in a lot of cases as being far more true to spiritual growth, than simply remaining in one comfort zones. It's stepping out into the unknown, through faith, actually.

 

[Thief]

So it is a crap shoot?

I mean, you can do all the good things in the world and if you picked the wrong god....

So the devil picks you ( or picks on you).....and you then feel better?

 

[Thief]

If you do good things to serve others, etc...if one is truly selfless when doing so, why would believing in a deity suddenly make those acts that much more virtuous?

More virtuous?

I lean more to trustworthy.
Doing good because it's your nature.
then walking about in heaven might be more...natural.