Pastor Kicked Out by His Congregation Over Transphobic Church Sign

[A Vestigial Mote]

What you forgetting is that when doing the religious life in the right way then the only law you follow is the law put up by God in the case of this discussion.

From what I have witnessed, what is recorded and therefore what has been proven a thousand or more times over - there is no such thing as an objective "right way" to practice any given religion. Interpretations, people you would say are "doing it wrong", who might look at you and think the exact same thing. In other words... a mess.

Yes you must follow law of country to not steal, or not to kill someone. but those are rules/guideliens of the religion too.

But no religion has ever come up with a comprehensive guide to all situations and ethical considerations that can ever be had. None. For example... what does any given religious text have to say about human cloning? What's the moral judgment to be had from the religious stance on that item? Point being... ADAPTATION! For the 10th time... adaptation, adaptation, adaptation! You can't claim that all relevant guidelines and rules are laid out in any religion. Not one. And precisely because they aren't allowed to be touched at this point. No new revisions, no addenda, nothing. Didn't these texts used to be more adaptive? More protean? Isn't that how they came about in the first place? Why... by golly... it IS!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have no judgment toward others, what i do say is what different religions actually is teaching those who follow

You have plenty of judgement toward others.

This is judgement:

I dont want to judge any of the parts involved, but should not a priest preach the bibles words? and when he do he get kicked out?
Or should he adapt to what people want to hear because it is comfortable today?

And so is this:

It was wrong of the pastor to write it yes, because he judge Jenner.

And this:

The congregation should follow the bible not the words of others.

And this:

As a priest/pastor he should maybe kept his view within the church and only teach the words written in the bible.

And this:

so the priest does not do wrong when he advocate that his church does not look at homosexuality as a right way. But if the person who is Gay does not live in a sexual relationship with an other of same sex, they can still be good christians. so the part of being gay in it self is not the sin, it is the act.

And this:

The person is welcome in to the church but not the act of homosexuality.

And what they want to day is to allow this act that was once called a sin. this is why there is moraly decline within the church.

But every time i do i get called a lier or a judgmental person. It is not judgmental toward any person, it is just explaining what the different religious law/ guidelines say.

Here's the thing: when everybody can read you obviously judging people, claiming you aren't doing it only convinces people that you're being hypocritical.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not concider them at all, i see a human being no matter if they are Gay, hetro or trans, it does not matter to me. In this tread i was only exaining what christianity teach, not my own view

You linked being trans with homosexuality. The Bible doesn't say a word about transsexuality; that was all from you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

From what I have witnessed, what is recorded and therefore what has been proven a thousand or more times over - there is no such thing as an objective "right way" to practice any given religion. Interpretations, people you would say are "doing it wrong", who might look at you and think the exact same thing. In other words... a mess.


But no religion has ever come up with a comprehensive guide to all situations and ethical considerations that can ever be had. None. For example... what does any given religious text have to say about human cloning? What's the moral judgment to be had from the religious stance on that item? Point being... ADAPTATION! For the 10th time... adaptation, adaptation, adaptation! You can't claim that all relevant guidelines and rules are laid out in any religion. Not one. And precisely because they aren't allowed to be touched at this point. No new revisions, no addenda, nothing. Didn't these texts used to be more adaptive? More protean? Isn't that how they came about in the first place? Why... by golly... it IS![/QUOT

You have plenty of judgement toward others.

This is judgement:



And so is this:



And this:


And this:


And this:


And this:



Here's the thing: when everybody can read you obviously judging people, claiming you aren't doing it only convinces people that you're being hypocritical.

Those quotes you found there is not judmental, it is telling what the bible say the priest should keep, and that is the 10 commandments. i do not judge the priest or Jenner.

What i try to do is to answer your question from a view of what religions say is right or wrong. And in chrisitanity homosexuality is seen as a sin. That is not my personal view it is a statement of what Christianity teach

Do you see the difference?

My personal view is that i do not have a view on homoseuality or other gender related issues. I can not judge them because i can only judge my own action, thoughts or words.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You linked being trans with homosexuality. The Bible doesn't say a word about transsexuality; that was all from you.

Honestly i do know very little about the different gender and what is what, because i see only a human being. Why should i think different of a Strait or a Gay or Trans gender person? they are human beings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those quotes you found there is not judmental, it is telling what the bible say the priest should keep, and that is the 10 commandments. i do not judge the priest or Jenner.

What i try to do is to answer your question from a view of what religions say is right or wrong. And in chrisitanity homosexuality is seen as a sin. That is not my personal view it is a statement of what Christianity teach

Do you see the difference?

My personal view is that i do not have a view on homoseuality or other gender related issues. I can not judge them because i can only judge my own action, thoughts or words.

When you claim that the Bible supports only one position on a complex issue, you're judging.

When you say things like "the pastor should..." or "the congregation should...," you're judging.

When you describe acceptance of LGBTQ people as "moral decline," you are most certainly judging.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Honestly i do know very little about the different gender and what is what, because i see only a human being. Why should i think different of a Strait or a Gay or Trans gender person? they are human beings.

You decided that Biblical commandments about same-sex activity relate to transsexuality in some way. All I'm asking from you is to explain how you connected these issues.

Edit: and you did already connect them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

When you claim that the Bible supports only one position on a complex issue, you're judging.

When you say things like "the pastor should..." or "the congregation should...," you're judging.

When you describe acceptance of LGBTQ people as "moral decline," you are most certainly judging.

I give up.

I have no intention to harm or judge anyone because it is not my business how they act. All i can use is words, and my engish is not good enough to get out what you could see as non judgmental.

 

[Revoltingest]

I give up.

I have no intention to harm or judge anyone because it is not my business how they act. All i can use is words, and my engish is not good enough to get out what you could see as non judgmental.

I see a common problem when discussing the views of others.
If I explain my understanding of what some group believes,
& then explain how they would apply it in real world situations,
this is often inferred to be judging by their standards.

How else can we understand others if we only oppose
them, & never try to see things from their perspective?
It's useful to consider things we disagree with.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Those quotes you found there is not judmental, it is telling what the bible say the priest should keep, and that is the 10 commandments. i do not judge the priest or Jenner.

What i try to do is to answer your question from a view of what religions say is right or wrong. And in chrisitanity homosexuality is seen as a sin. That is not my personal view it is a statement of what Christianity teach

Do you see the difference?

My personal view is that i do not have a view on homoseuality or other gender related issues. I can not judge them because i can only judge my own action, thoughts or words.

So, basically, all your back and forth with me can be summed up as you keeping the position:

"It doesn't matter what a religion teaches - if it is in their holy books, then we're bound to respect it. We should all just afford the adherents of that religion their beliefs no matter what they are and never challenge them."

Is that about right? If so... shame on you. There are judgments that are wrong to have (for example, holding people accountable for circumstances that are completely out of their control - like skin color), and then there are judgments that MUST be had if we are ever to be able to live alongside one another and keep the stupidity that can (and does) arise between us at bay.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

How else can we understand others if we only oppose
them, & never try to see things from their perspective?
It's useful to consider things we disagree with.

And sometimes it is extremely useful to understand them only insofar as we need to in order to determine that those things we disagree with should be opposed. I don't claim things are "black and white" in this area of human interaction. Never has been. There are things you can let slide, and there are things you can't. When the majority agree that something can't just slide by, action is taken - just like in the case of this pastor from the OP. And many times that holds no matter how much you "understand" the other perspective being scrutinized.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So, basically, all your back and forth with me can be summed up as you keeping the position:

"It doesn't matter what a religion teaches - if it is in their holy books, then we're bound to respect it. We should all just afford the adherents of that religion their beliefs no matter what they are and never challenge them."

Is that about right? If so... shame on you. There are judgments that are wrong to have (for example, holding people accountable for circumstances that are completely out of their control - like skin color), and then there are judgments that MUST be had if we are ever to be able to live alongside one another and keep the stupidity that can (and does) arise between us at bay.

Of course you can ask questions about the religion or the scripture. But what about asking.

What does this mean? then example qoute something you want to know
Or you can ask the book say this, why do people not follow it even they clame to be from thi belief.

It is so much more easy to answer to a question that is polite and asked to learn, instead of defending once belief because one feel that the person "attaching" with words are to agressive. Why not ask nice?

 

[Revoltingest]

And sometimes it is extremely useful to understand them only insofar as we need to in order to determine that those things we disagree with should be opposed.

I oppose a great many things I've considered.
For example, in considering how Christians would apply their scripture,
this tells me much about the individual. They can advocate something
I completely disagree with (eg, opposing gay marriage), but their scriptural
reasoning would explain a politically authoritarian view, despite one still
being generally socially liberal (as in permissive).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course you can ask questions about the religion or the scripture. But what about asking.

Or you can ask the book say this, why do people not follow it even they clame to be from thi belief.

Unfortunately, people do not tend to have good reasons for why they came to the beliefs in the first place. If you want to see some examples of perfectly civilized and "nice" discussions between people, where one is basically tearing apart the beliefs of the other simply by "asking questions", I suggest you watch the YouTube videos on "Street Epistemology." There you can see how baseless most people's beliefs are when the subject is a thing they can't possibly claim understanding for - and you can even watch some people come to the realization themselves that their beliefs have no solid ground to stand on.

It is so much more easy to answer to a question that is polite and asked to learn, instead of defending once belief because one feel that the person "attaching" with words are to agressive. Why not ask nice?

Sure, we can ask. But there's also a time for skipping that and going straight to action. The pastor from the OP got drop-kicked out of his church. That was the decision of nearly his entire congregation. Times are changing, and the pastor decided he didn't need to change with them... but the only backup he had was his precious Bible. That isn't good enough. Never will be. And a lot more people are figuring this out as time goes on.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Unfortunately, people do not tend to have good reasons for why they came to the beliefs in the first place. If you want to see some examples of perfectly civilized and "nice" discussions between people, where one is basically tearing apart the beliefs of the other simply by "asking questions", I suggest you watch the YouTube videos on "Street Epistemology." There you can see how baseless most people's beliefs are when the subject is a thing they can't possibly claim understanding for - and you can even watch some people come to the realization themselves that their beliefs have no solid ground to stand on.



Sure, we can ask. But there's also a time for skipping that and going straight to action. The pastor from the OP got drop-kicked out of his church. That was the decision of nearly his entire congregation. Times are changing, and the pastor decided he didn't need to change with them... but the only backup he had was his precious Bible. That isn't good enough. Never will be. And a lot more people are figuring this out as time goes on.

Well i will stick to the buddhist teaching because i do not have doubt in it, But if others does not believ in it or does not want to follow Buddhism or other religions, that is ok to me. I will keep on the path i have been on for years.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I oppose a great many things I've considered.
For example, in considering how Christians would apply their scripture,
this tells me much about the individual. They can advocate something
I completely disagree with (eg, opposing gay marriage), but their scriptural
reasoning would explain a politically authoritarian view, despite one still
being generally socially liberal (as in permissive).

I agree that we can always try to come to understanding as to why someone holds a particular belief, and that can be very useful. I have no problems at all with such a process.

But just as a I readily admit that my own beliefs are things I understand that I do not know with a sufficient degree of certainty, others need to also be able to make such an admission... or they should be prepared to be disappointed by the rest of us. No crying... no appeals... when things don't go your way, and all you have is "belief" to argue over - just understand when you don't have a leg to stand on and deal with it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree that we can always try to come to understanding as to why someone holds a particular belief, and that can be very useful. I have no problems at all with such a process.

But just as a I readily admit that my own beliefs are things I understand that I do not know with a sufficient degree of certainty, others need to also be able to make such an admission... or they should be prepared to be disappointed by the rest of us. No crying... no appeals... just understand when you don't have a leg to stand on with your beliefs and deal with it.

We're all doomed to not get our way with government.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

We're all doomed to not get our way with government.

This isn't necessarily, or entirely true. Our particular form of government was designed to change with the changing of the guard. I understand it doesn't happen often, or rigorously enough - and that most all changes are just from one politician to another. If you really care enough, perhaps you should be in government?

 

[Revoltingest]

This isn't necessarily, or entirely true. Our particular form of government was designed to change with the changing of the guard. I understand it doesn't happen often, or rigorously enough - and that most all changes are just from one politician to another. If you really care enough, perhaps you should be in government?

My point is that we all have different beliefs.
Government will be some amalgam of those,
with no one person having total sway.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

My point is that we all have different beliefs.
Government will be some amalgam of those,
with no one person having total sway.

Which is as it must be.