"Patriarchy"

[MysticSang'ha]

Naturally, but not all sexual contact without verbal consent =sexual assault.

Lets say, of a 100 first kisses, how much of them were verbally declared before being executed? And of a 100 females how many would be turned off by that? When a female starts the kiss, how many ask if they can kiss?

I am merely pointing out that it does not turn into sexual assault simply because they guy didnt guess right.

Walking up to someone and grabbing their crotch is not in the same realm as sexual foreplay.

Holy ****, do we need a rudimentary lesson in what consent means?

 

[Debater Slayer]

The thing is fine xD. As I said it is just oh so more comfortable now that I can actually ask.

The point is that it doesnt even need to be that confusing. Sometimes you just simply dont know and go for it. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are in a condition where it is easy for her to physically reject you if she doesnt correspond the drive or the will.

So thats all I am saying. Sexually grabbing someone when the other one doesnt want to is not sexuall assult in every circumstance. For it to be sexual assult you need to know s/he doesnt want to and still do it anyways, or do it in a circumstance where the other is helpless.

The point is that, unless you've asked them and confirmed otherwise, there is a lack of consent regardless of whether or not outright rejection is expressed by the person you're approaching. Without having express approval from said person to sexually approach them in any way, you're just forcing yourself on them and stepping over your boundaries.

 

[outis]

Its oxford dictionary.

From that dictionary's website (I'm not allowed to post the URL):
Definition of patriarchy
noun (plural patriarchies)
[mass noun]
a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is reckoned through the male line:
the thematic relationships of the ballad are worked out according to the conventional archetypes of the patriarchy
a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it:
the dominant ideology of patriarchy
[count noun] a society or community organized on patriarchal lines:
we live in a patriarchy
Origin:
mid 17th century: via medieval Latin from Greek patriarkhia, from patriarkhēs 'ruling father' (see patriarch)

Granted, this isn't the most clear definition but whatever do you think "descent" refers to here? How that thing is transmitted from generation to generation is the essence of patriarchy.
Patriarchy is a tool for violent men to rule other violent men. No ideology is needed to oppress defenseless people such as women.

Patriarchy never conceptually meant to include any other form of gender bias until feminism came by and added to the concept as a propaganda strategy.

Thousands of years before feminism, patriarchy involved such bias as killing men while enslaving women (manly man = potential threat to the patriarch, womanly woman = potential wife for the patriarch or pliable slave for his gang).
Seeing this is a "Religious Education Forum", look at very early Islam for instance!

 

[Me Myself]

The point is that, unless you've asked them and confirmed otherwise, there is a lack of consent regardless of whether or not outright rejection is expressed by the person you're approaching. Without having express approval from said person to sexually approach them in any way, you're just forcing yourself on them and stepping over your boundaries.

I am not sure if I read something wrong there, but the way I am reading that would seem to imply that all kisses that were being given without asking are sexual assault.

Almost all people I know should be taken to jail?

 

[Me Myself]

From that dictionary's website (I'm not allowed to post the URL):
Definition of patriarchy
noun (plural patriarchies)
[mass noun]
a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is reckoned through the male line:
the thematic relationships of the ballad are worked out according to the conventional archetypes of the patriarchy
a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it:
the dominant ideology of patriarchy
[count noun] a society or community organized on patriarchal lines:
we live in a patriarchy
Origin:
mid 17th century: via medieval Latin from Greek patriarkhia, from patriarkhēs 'ruling father' (see patriarch)

Granted, this isn't the most clear definition but whatever do you think "descent" refers to here? How that thing is transmitted from generation to generation is the essence of patriarchy.
Patriarchy is a tool for violent men to rule other violent men. No ideology is needed to oppress defenseless people such as women.


Thousands of years before feminism, patriarchy involved such bias as killing men while enslaving women (manly man = potential threat to the patriarch, womanly woman = potential wife for the patriarch or pliable slave for his gang).
Seeing this is a "Religious Education Forum", look at very early Islam for instance!

I honestly am not sure of your point here.

The only ting patriarchy has done is forbid women to hold places of political power. Each other gender discrimination is its own gender discrimination.

 

[outis]

I honestly am not sure of your point here.

The only ting patriarchy has done is forbid women to hold places of political power.

I'm simply pointing out that even the dictionary you cited does not support your assertion.
As far as I can tell, you have nothing to stand on but prejudice.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm simply pointing out that even the dictionary you cited does not support your assertion.
As far as I can tell, you have nothing to stand on but prejudice.

Where does it not support my assertion? I
Where does it say that male disposability has anything to do with patriarchy?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am not sure if I read something wrong there, but the way I am reading that would seem to imply that all kisses that were being given without asking are sexual assault.

Almost all people I know should be taken to jail?

No. I'm talking about approaching a complete stranger and touching them in a sexually suggestive way without having express approval from them to do so. That would be uninvited and forced sexual behavior, i.e., sexual assault.

 

[Me Myself]

No. I'm talking about approaching a complete stranger and touching them in a sexually suggestive way without having express approval from them to do so. That would be uninvited and forced sexual behavior, i.e., sexual assault.

Sure. Sounds about right.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sure. Sounds about right.

Pfft... okay, fine. We can't keep disagreeing all the time, after all.

(You know you're supposed to disagree so we can continue debating, right? )

 

[outis]

It only confuses one person I'm aware of.

I'm aware of more than one confused Internet denizen. As I hinted at above, it's the reason I posted in this thread actually.

Some well-meaning people identifying as feminists disown the notion of patriarchy. I think that's an over-reaction but some rethinking about the way we use the word might be in order now that our political and economic system has changed utterly.

Seriously, though, we have made amazing progress, and our societies are more egalitarian than ever, thanks to feminism.

inequality != patriarchy
There's a relationship of course but it's not straightforward. Let's not contribute to the confusion.

We still see all male congressional panels deciding what kind of birth control American women should be allowed to use and some people don't find it weird.

Is this really an issue of equality and representation? Do you really stand for politicians of any stripe deciding what kind of birth control people are allowed to use? A panel of female politicians could be composed of Bachmanns, you know.

 

[Me Myself]

Pfft... okay, fine. We can't keep disagreeing all the time, after all.

(You know you're supposed to disagree so we can continue debating, right? )

No, I do not HAVE to disagree so we continue debating D8<



Its just you put a situation in which it would be reaaaaaaaaaaally hard for someone to think maybe the other person would approve of such advance. I mean not even people in bad porn are that direct . I just honestly cant imagine what could happen in someones head to make first contact like that to a complete stranger.

I mean, if we include that first they lock eyes and they make very very explicit body language comunications... It is still very hard to imagine the first contact to be hand on crotch xD.

 

[Alceste]

Its oxford dictionary.

About argumentation, you have none. Patriarchy is a form of gender discrimination, but supposing that it is what originated other forms is mere speculation.

Patriarchy never conceptually meant to include any other form of gender bias until feminism came by and added to the concept as a propaganda strategy.

Once more, please upgrade your understanding of patriarchy AT LEAST to wikipedia level.

Patriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alceste]

I'm aware of more than one confused Internet denizen. As I hinted at above, it's the reason I posted in this thread actually.

Some well-meaning people identifying as feminists disown the notion of patriarchy. I think that's an over-reaction but some rethinking about the way we use the word might be in order now that our political and economic system has changed utterly.


inequality != patriarchy
There's a relationship of course but it's not straightforward. Let's not contribute to the confusion.


Is this really an issue of equality and representation? Do you really stand for politicians of any stripe deciding what kind of birth control people are allowed to use? A panel of female politicians could be composed of Bachmanns, you know.

I will credit feminism for the specific gains I'm talking about - the right to participate in the democratic process, bodily autonomy and economic liberty for women. That's also the egalitarian progress I'm referring to. Patriarchy is unequal by nature, and gains in equality for women are directly proportional to the erosion of patriarchal attitudes and institutions.

And yes, when it comes to making decisions about what drugs and procedures will be permissible by law or funded with public money, somebody in government needs to decide. It's a commonly accepted reality in the medical establishment that birth control generally falls into the category of women's health, so yes, I think women should primarily be making those policy decisions. Drugs and procedures that would fall into the category of men's health, like vasectomies, it makes sense to have men make policy decisions.

Edit: and I think even the Michelle Bachmann's of the world would balk at outlawing birth control.

 

[Me Myself]

inequality != patriarchy

This is exactly the misconception I am talking about

Inequality =/= patriarchism.

Patriarchism = inequality.

The specific inequality that patriarchism foments is inability for women to be political leaders and leaders in the household when in presence of a father figure.

any other gender inequality is its own monster.

 

[Me Myself]

Once more, please upgrade your understanding of patriarchy AT LEAST to wikipedia level.

Patriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once more, we are not debating how the concept is used today, the debate is that the use given since feminist propaganda adds to the original concept.

The original concept only had to do with male political leadership and leadership in households.

Male dispensability has nothing to do with that in itself, so it cannot be attributed to patriarchy.

Patriarchy = only males are allowed in power

Patriarchy =/= male dispensability.

 

[Alceste]

Once more, we are not debating how the concept is used today, the debate is that the use given since feminist propaganda adds to the original concept.

The original concept only had to do with male political leadership and leadership in households.

Male dispensability has nothing to do with that in itself, so it cannot be attributed to patriarchy.

Patriarchy = only males are allowed in power

Patriarchy =/= male dispensability.

You keep making this claim over and over again, and you don't even seem to care that you're wrong. Honestly, if you would just read the wikipedia entry on patriarchy, you could correct your errors and we could all move on.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Once more, we are not debating how the concept is used today, the debate is that the use given since feminist propaganda adds to the original concept.

The original concept only had to do with male political leadership and leadership in households.

Male dispensability has nothing to do with that in itself, so it cannot be attributed to patriarchy.

Patriarchy = only males are allowed in power

Patriarchy =/= male dispensability.

Do you still take issue with how "patriarchy" seems to be a subliminal denigrating term for men, and how "feminism" subliminally venerates women?

I think this thread has met it's quota for tangents on patriarchy as the thread subject.

 

[Me Myself]

You keep making this claim over and over again, and you don't even seem to care that you're wrong. Honestly, if you would just read the wikipedia entry on patriarchy, you could correct your errors and we could all move on.

What specific part do you think supports your point? I read it several times.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I just know it's kind of hot when a chick calls you daddy while you're doing it. And that I'm disturbed by this.