Paul and Jesus

[fallingblood]

Because other Scriptures showing Jesus' participation in the Passover are not from John does not mean they "fail."
It simply means you practice counterfeit exegesis which depends on setting the Scripture against itself and not allowing the testimony of other Scriptures
because they show your interpretation to be wrong.That is not only counterfeit exegesis, that is absurd exegesis.

Blah blah blah blah. That's all I hear not. Nothing more than some lame excuses. It would be worthwhile if you actually read what I stated though. Or for you to understand that I'm speaking about only of John here and what he is saying.

I will leave you to your counterfeit and absurd exegesis.

So this is your admittance that you simply can't debate anymore? I've shown you why you're wrong, and you simply can't deal with it, so you resort to childish retort.

 

[fallingblood]

True exegesis is in the light and context of the other Scriptures.
You practice counterfeit exegesis by trying to set the Scriptures against itself.
I am interested only in true exegesis.
I will leave you to your counterfeit exegesis which depends on setting the Scriptures against itself.

This is your argument? Since I've provided information you can't possibly debate, you instead resort to this?

 

[smokydot]

smokeydot,
i had a flip around trying to figure this out myself when i read this
for me it was wrapping my head around the fact that passover is on the 15th
sabbath starts on the friday night, when it gets dark. and since these 2 events were in the same week it gets confusing. but in the NIV you will see that they differentiate the 2 days. the day of preparation for the sabbath (mark 15:42) and the day of preparation for passover (john 9:14)

mark 15:42 is the day of preparation for the sabbath, not passover.

in mark jesus eats the passover meal (thursday night) and crucified on friday morning.
mark 14:12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?
Mark 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.

in john jesus does not eat the passover meal but is crucified on the day before the passover meal was to be eaten
in john jesus dies a day earlier on the day of preparation for the passover
in mark jesus is crucified at 9 in the morning day of preparation the day before the sabbath the morning after the passover meal(mk 15:25, 42)
in john he is sentenced at 12 noon (jn 9:14)

and then we can get into when the curtain ripped in half
was if before jesus died or after?

Good job, waitasec.

Did you take into account the different ways Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are often lumped together under one, or other, of the two names in post #44?
That would explain why in John it is referred to as the Day of Preparation for Passover, because in this case Passover is used to refer to the period including the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began on Sabbath Saturday.

Whaddya' think?

 

[fallingblood]

Good job, waitasec.

Did you take into account the different ways Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are often lumped together under one, or other, of the two names?

That would explain why in John it is referred to as the Day of Preparation for Passover, because in this case Passover is used to refer to the period including the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began on Sabbath Saturday.

Whaddya' think?

I think you just contradicted yourself. Your logic doesn't make sense at all. Especially if you want to take scripture into account, where Matthew states specifically that the Feast of Unleavened Bread began before Passover, two days before the Sabbath.

 

[dogsgod]

From the OP,

If there were any doubt of that, Paul had voiced that idea previously as well, stating that jesus was “born of a woman, born under the law (Galatians 4:4)..

 

[smokydot]

I think you just contradicted yourself. Your logic doesn't make sense at all. Especially if you want to take scripture into account, where Matthew states specifically that the Feast of Unleavened Bread began before Passover, two days before the Sabbath.

You don't know the Jewis calendar of Feasts.

 

[fallingblood]

You don't know the Jewis calendar of Feasts.

Show it. Show that I'm wrong instead of just insulting my understanding.

 

[fallingblood]

From the OP,

Any reason why? Or maybe you would care to actually not take that statement out of context.

 

[smokydot]

Blah blah blah blah. That's all I hear not. Nothing more than some lame excuses. It would be worthwhile if you actually read what I stated though. Or for you to understand that I'm speaking about only of John here and what he is saying.

You treat of John as though it contains all the information on the event, and that what is not identical to Luke is necessarily a contradiction.

That is countefeit exegesis.

So this is your admittance that you simply can't debate anymore? I've shown you why you're wrong, and you simply can't deal with it, so you resort to childish retort.

I do not accept the premises of your debate that because both accounts aren't identical, they are therefore two different stories.
I will not debate based on your faulty premises.

 

[smokydot]

Show it. Show that I'm wrong instead of just insulting my understanding.

I have a better idea.
Why don't you submit the Jewish Calendar of Feasts to me, and we'll go from there.

And you've dealt your share of insults.

 

[fallingblood]

You treat of John as though it contains all the information on the event, and that what is not identical to Luke is necessarily a contradiction.

That is countefeit exegesis.
I do not accept the premises of your debate that because both accounts aren't identical, they are therefore two different stories.
I will not debate based on your faulty premises.

You're not understanding what I stated. I'm simply dealing here with whether or not John said that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation of Passover, the day before Passover. As in direct contrast to what the synoptics would state. To use the synoptics to prove this would be dumb. I've now proven my point though, and I've shown that you are wrong about the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Yet, you can't add any argument.

 

[fallingblood]

I have a better idea.
Why don't you submit the Jewish Calendar of Feasts to me, and we'll go from there.

And you've dealt your share of insults.

Or maybe you could just show me that I'm wrong. Or maybe you could explain how you're right if Matthew states that the Feast of Unleavened Bread occurs before Passover.

Plus, I'm talking about events in the first century. Not what the Jewish calendar places the festivals today. There is a difference.

Finally, unless you want to actually add some logical debate, I'm done running around in circles with you.

 

[dogsgod]

Any reason why? Or maybe you would care to actually not take that statement out of context.

I just can't believe the same old nonsense resurfaces time and time again. Oh well, carry on.

 

[fallingblood]

I just can't believe the same old nonsense resurfaces time and time again. Oh well, carry on.

So you aren't willing to say why it's nonsense? From what I've seen from Jesus-mythers, they have to rely on cheap cop outs such as you have done because they know if they do any research, they will see that they are wrong. It's no different than the blind faith some Christians have.

 

[dogsgod]

So you aren't willing to say why it's nonsense? From what I've seen from Jesus-mythers, they have to rely on cheap cop outs such as you have done because they know if they do any research, they will see that they are wrong. It's no different than the blind faith some Christians have.

Rats, foiled again.

 

[Ilisrum]

In Maurice Casey's new book Jesus of Nazareth, he gives some credence to the traditional authorship of the synoptic gospels. He argues that Mark was written earlier than generally believed, c. 40 by Mark, whom he claims heard Cephas preach but wasn't a close disciple of his as tradition states. Matthew, he argues, was written 10-20 years after Mark (c. 50-60) by an unknown author, although some of his material may go back to the Apostle. With Luke he takes a more traditional stance and says that he was a traveling companion of Paul and wrote his gospel sometime in the 80s.
John he rejects as spurious.

Just thought his argument is interesting coming from a non-Christian.

 

[Oberon]

In Maurice Casey's new book Jesus of Nazareth, he gives some credence to the traditional authorship of the synoptic gospels. He argues that Mark was written earlier than generally believed, c. 40 by Mark, whom he claims heard Cephas preach but wasn't a close disciple of his as tradition states. Matthew, he argues, was written 10-20 years after Mark (c. 50-60) by an unknown author, although some of his material may go back to the Apostle. With Luke he takes a more traditional stance and says that he was a traveling companion of Paul and wrote his gospel sometime in the 80s.
John he rejects as spurious.

Just thought his argument is interesting coming from a non-Christian.

According to dogsgod, though, it doesn't matter if one is a christian, because just accepting that Jesus is historical makes one a "believer" (whatever that means).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

According to dogsgod, though, it doesn't matter if one is a christian, because just accepting that Jesus is historical makes one a "believer" (whatever that means).

Or my favorite meaningless polemical term that he uses: "mythicist."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

True exegesis is in the light and context of the other Scriptures.
You practice counterfeit exegesis by trying to set the Scriptures against itself.
I am interested only in true exegesis.

There's a word for that: eisegesis.

 

[smokydot]

smokeydot,
i had a flip around trying to figure this out myself when i read this
for me it was wrapping my head around the fact that passover is on the 15th
sabbath starts on the friday night, when it gets dark. and since these 2 events were in the same week it gets confusing. but in the NIV you will see that they differentiate the 2 days. the day of preparation for the sabbath (mark 15:42) and the day of preparation for passover (john 9:14)

Let's begin with this clear statement which is to be kept in mind here: two feasts often went by one name, but they were still two feasts.

Lk 22:1 -- "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching."
The seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread was not the Passover. It began the day after Passover, and was a separate feast.
But because it was a continuous eight-day period, they were often lumped together and given just one of the names,
as Luke makes clear here.
This causes no small amount of confusion when trying to reconcile the various accounts.

So: Passover = one-day, followed by
Feast of Unleavened Bread = seven days

for a total of eight-days in a row of special religious observance.

Okay, now review my post #44 where I present the texts which show that "Passover" and "Feast of Unleaved Bread"
were often used interchangeably in the NT.
These texts show that it cannot be said conclusively that "day of preparation for Passover" refers to Passover in the text of Jn 19:14.
Likewise, there is no day of preparation for Passover in the OT.
And since regarding it as Passover conflicts with all the other accounts on the subject, there is no reason to disbelieve John was referring to the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which did begin with a Sabbath, for which there would be a Preparation Day, and interchanging the two names was common usage in the NT.

mark 15:42 is the day of preparation for the sabbath, not passover

In this case, Mark is using the correct term, Sabbath, for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which began on a Sabbath [making it a special Sabbath (Jn 19:31) because it was part of a Feast (festival)],
rather than the sometimes common term, Passover, used for that seven-day feast (Lk 22:1).

in mark jesus eats the passover meal (thursday night) and crucified on friday morning.
mark 14:12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb,

Here is another example of the common usage of Passover to mean Feast of Unleavened Bread. As you can see here, Mark uses them as the same feast.
They are not the same feast. The Passover Lamb was never sacrificed on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was always sacrificed two nights before that.
Mark is following the common practice of using "Feast of Unleavened Bread" to refer to both events, the Feast and the Passover.

Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?

Mark 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.
in john jesus does not eat the passover meal

Jn 13:2 is Jesus eating the Passover meal. The whole passage, 13:2-18:1 is the Passover meal.

But note that Jn 13:1 refers to the Passover Feast. . ."Passover" Feast was one of the common names for the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
However, Passover did not cvcur during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It occurred the day before that feast.

but is crucified on the day before the passover meal was to be eaten

Jn 13:2 is the Passover meal. The whole passage, 13:2-18:1 occurs at the Passover meal.
But note that Jn 13:1 says, "It was just before Passover Feast." That was common usage for Feast of Unleavened Bread. Jesus' Passover meal with his disciples in five chapters of John, 13-17, was just before (one day before, remembering that the Feast began at sundown the next day) the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

in john jesus dies a day earlier on the day of preparation for the passover

Jesus' death is not the day before Passover when you correctly understand John's common usage of "Passover" to mean the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

in mark jesus is crucified at 9 in the morning day of preparation the day before the sabbath the morning after the passover meal(mk 15:25, 42)
in john he is sentenced at 12 noon (jn 9:14)

Actually, the text in John says the sixth hour, while the text in Mark says the third hour.
The sixth hour of Roman time would have been the third hour of Jewish time.
So, in addition to different systems of nomenclature, we have different systems of time being used in these accounts.
Helps understand where all the confusion and supposed "contradictions" come from.

and then we can get into when the curtain ripped in half
was if before jesus died or after?

These "scholars" are grasping at straws.
The differences in times on that one would be just seconds, because in one account it occurs just before Jesus breathes his last breath,
and in the other it occurs just after Jesus breathes his last breath.

And since they didn't have cell phones, there was no way to telegraph from the Temple the exact minute the curtain was torn.