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Paul declares the God of Israel dead!

Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the Torah, Jews) how that the Torah hath dominion over a man (anthropos) as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman (Israel/Jews) which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Torah; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the Torah, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the Torah, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (KJV) Romans 7
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Great another anti Paul thread based on ignorance and out of context quote mining, OH BOY!!!!!!!!
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
John Locke in his Commentary on Romans published in 1823 saw plainly Paul's point of Romans 7:1-6:

In the six first verses of this chapter, he shows the Jews that they were at liberty from the law, and might put themselves solely under the terms of the Gospel. In the following part of this chapter, he shows them that it is necessary for them so to do; since the law was not able to deliver them from the power sin had to destroy them, but subjected them to it. (Works of John Locke (1823) Vol. 8 at 316.)

And Locke saw plainly it must be they were "freed from it by the death of Christ, who was the end of the law for the attaining of righteousness...." (Works of John Locke (1823) Vol. 8 at 314.)
 
Scott C.

Scott C.

Just one guy
When Christ died and when we repent, Christ becomes our "Father" by adoption. We are "born again" and become his children. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and we are no longer under that law. This does not mean that God the Father is dead. It means that we have a new relationship with Christ.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Scott C. said:
When Christ died and when we repent, Christ becomes our "Father" by adoption. We are "born again" and become his children. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and we are no longer under that law. This does not mean that God the Father is dead. It means that we have a new relationship with Christ.
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Yes, that is Paul's claim also. But WHY is the law of Moses no longer binding?? Paul answers this question:

if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Paul makes it clear that is the "death of the husband" which causes the Law to be nullified.
 
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sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the Torah, Jews) how that the Torah hath dominion over a man (anthropos) as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman (Israel/Jews) which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Torah; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the Torah, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the Torah, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (KJV) Romans 7
Click to expand...

Hi SL, the "Torah" means "law" and included the writings of Moses and the Prophets as well as the Decalogue written on stone tablets BY GOD. You know that to be a fact. Those laws were to govern mankind as long as mankind lived.
Paul used the Adultery Commandment as an analogy in making his point seen in the previous chapters---one is bound by the penalty of sin(one's husband) until that husband dies or the one dies.
Therefore, one dies to being bound to sin by accepting the "body of Christ" WHO had died upon the Cross for payment of all of mankind who acknowledge and repent of sinning. In the arising unto newness of life one is freed to marry the one who freed them from sin and death.
The Decalogue is still valid and the standard by which one is declared a sinner. That Law was never meant to save a person, but by knowing the Law, one would be obedient and in the right relationship to the Creator GOD and the rest of mankind.
 
sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
Here are some Christians who agree with me:

"God died for all men...." (Middletown Church.) "God died for his creation." (Ron Graham.) "But God died for His enemies." (Lakeworth Baptist.)
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SL, You are failing to post those words in their context. That is the same as is seen in Ps.14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

GOD the Father is very much alive as is Jesus Christ who was resurrected from the dead and is the hope of all who believe in HIM.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Whuppty do. the father calls Jesus 'G-d' in the Bible, and the creator. So it's still worshipping a G-d, Jeshua, we just don't keep all the written Torah laws. :)
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
sincerly said:
Hi SL, the "Torah" means "law" and included the writings of Moses and the Prophets as well as the Decalogue written on stone tablets BY GOD. You know that to be a fact. Those laws were to govern mankind as long as mankind lived.
Paul used the Adultery Commandment as an analogy in making his point seen in the previous chapters---one is bound by the penalty of sin(one's husband) until that husband dies or the one dies.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't hold the decalogue in a different category as the Law of Moses. There is no place in the Scripture where it defines the decalogue as being for humanity and the rest not. I would challenge you to prove this separation from the Scriptures. The "top" ten commandments are representative of the rest of the commandments. 5 commands which deal with how we approach YHVH. 5 that deal with how we are to relate to each other. Paul clearly is saying that the Law of Moses (decalogue) included is dead.

"one is bound by the penalty of sin(one's husband) until that husband dies or the one dies"--can you please elaborate on how you read this passage. Who is the husband??
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
[QUOTETherefore, one dies to being bound to sin by accepting the "body of Christ" WHO had died upon the Cross for payment of all of mankind who acknowledge and repent of sinning. In the arising unto newness of life one is freed to marry the one who freed them from sin and death.
The Decalogue is still valid and the standard by which one is declared a sinner. That Law was never meant to save a person, but by knowing the Law, one would be obedient and in the right relationship to the Creator GOD and the rest of mankind.[/QUOTE]

"Therefor, one dies to being bound to sin" --This is not what Paul said. Paul clearly said the God of the Law of Moses died. He didn't say "you died to being bound to sin".
disciple said:
Hebrews. I created a thread about it in Scriptural debates.
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Do you agree that the 4 gospels and revelation don't say this? Hebrews was written by Paul or one of his contemporaries so I give it little authority.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
[QUOTETherefore, one dies to being bound to sin by accepting the "body of Christ" WHO had died upon the Cross for payment of all of mankind who acknowledge and repent of sinning. In the arising unto newness of life one is freed to marry the one who freed them from sin and death.
[/QUOTE]

This passage gets confusing quick when being discussed. You said:

"Therefore, one dies to being bound to sin" ---But this is not what Paul said. He said that someone else died. Someone who the law of Moses was attached to. He then says that because this being is Dead, we are now free from the Law of Moses which was attached to that being.

"In the arising unto newness of life one is freed to marry the one who freed them from sin and death."

I get this part. Clearly Paul is saying we are now free to marry Jesus, who Paul claims has no affiliation with the Law of Moses. I understand Paul's logic in this statement. But still, who was the one who died???
 
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