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Paul..fake liar or apostle?

astarath

Well-Known Member
However Christ also speaks in Matt 5:17-19 as I have previously quoted :

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Not one commandment... not one tittle shall pass from law. For whoever does this and teaches thisshall be the least in heaven. Read Galatians again and refer to the part about the circumcision.

Christ at no point expunged the tenets of the law but rather enforced them with this teaching and so Paul will be the least in the kingdom of heaven, for teaching and condeming Law and it's tenets
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
astarath said:
However Christ also speaks in Matt 5:17-19 as I have previously quoted :

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Not one commandment... not one tittle shall pass from law. For whoever does this and teaches thisshall be the least in heaven. Read Galatians again and refer to the part about the circumcision.

Christ at no point expunged the tenets of the law but rather enforced them with this teaching and so Paul will be the least in the kingdom of heaven, for teaching and condeming Law and it's tenets

You're confusing the ten commandments with the laws of sin and death.

Christ didn't abolish the ten commandments but Christians are not bound to the ten commandments in the same manner that Jews were, before Christ. With Christ, we were instructed to LOVE and LOVE IS the ULTIMATE fullfillment of the law. Therefore, the Christian is bound by LOVE...bound to Christ.

That doesn't mean that we aren't to obey the ten commandments. The laws pertaining to life and death...on a spiritual level have changed. It's hard to explain. And this probably doesn't make any sense...

Christ frees us from death and sin. Christ changed the way that we atone for our sins. He IS the ultimate atonement and therefore, he has freed us from the laws of sin and death.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
dawny0826 said:
Christ frees us from death and sin. Christ changed the way that we atone for our sins. He IS the ultimate atonement and therefore, he has freed us from the laws of sin and death.

just to offer a phrase, wasn't Christ meant as "the last blood sacrifice"?
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
I am not refering to the ten commandments solely but the Law. The To'rah. the first five books of your bible.

Does Paul or does he not say that there is no value in circumsion?

Is the rite of circumsion written in the Law?

Does Christ not say do not remove one word of the law or you will become least in the kingdom of heaven?
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
Christ's death was an atonement for sin at no point does christ teach that adherence to the law is to stop due to his sacrifice. The law was written to show how god would be pleased with our lives. We are expected to follow them.

Matt 5:17-19
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
The guy claimed to be a "pharisie of pharisies' but was in the employment of sadducees pursecuting christians. You can do the math.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
astarath said:
I am not refering to the ten commandments solely but the Law. The To'rah. the first five books of your bible.

Does Paul or does he not say that there is no value in circumsion?

Is the rite of circumsion written in the Law?

Does Christ not say do not remove one word of the law or you will become least in the kingdom of heaven?

Christians are not Jewish. We're not bound by the laws of Torah. We're bound to Christ Jesus.

The ten commandments are found w/in the New Testament of the Bible as well.

No, we don't have to circumcise our sons. It's no longer necessary. We no longer have to sacrifice animals. Christ WAS the sacrifice.

We're to follow His lead and by seeking forgiveness in Him, we are forgiven for our sins. It is the blood of Christ Jesus that cleanses us, so that we can be reconciled to God.

When Christ spoke those words that we were to follow the law...He was a Jew Himself. He Himself was bound to the laws of Judaism.

The law was fulfilled with His crucifixtion and most importantly...His resurrection.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
dawny0826 said:
Yes He was. :)
thought so. :)

the laws of the To'rah govern purity, am i correct?

blood sacrifices were asked by YahWeh as atonement for impurity, am i correct?

Christ is believed to be the last blood sacrifice, a belief in him would then surely mean that, for a believer in Christ, their purity is not found in their own blood sacrifices, but in accepting Christ's sacrifice.

so in effect, why uphold what you percieve as an out of date law?

Edit:

astarath said:
Christ's death was an atonement for sin at no point does christ teach that adherence to the law is to stop due to his sacrifice. The law was written to show how god would be pleased with our lives. We are expected to follow them.

Matt 5:17-19

but the very nature of the law changes for those who believe Jeshua is the Messiah.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
I wrote this for another forum a while ago. I probably would phrase some parts a little differently if I were to re-write it, but the general idea is the same: Christ is not less than the Law, but More. I'd like to say clearly here that I do not think that Jews of Christ's day or ours did not realize that the Law is about Love. The Pharisee is in each of us when we lose sight of the love of God and try to bludgeon each other with laws. Laws are an imperfect way of helping us love one another, but humans being what we are, they are still a gift when followed in the Spirit.

Quote:
17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (Matt 4:17).

This is the heart of Christ’s Gospel, the Good News. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. And large portions of Jesus’ teachings were to tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like. What is it like? It’s unlike what we expect it to be. It is like a mustard seed. It is like yeast. Like treasure hidden in a field. Does it belong to the most powerful? To those who work the hardest? To the rich?

No. It belongs to the poor in spirit, to those who mourn, to the meek, to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, to the merciful, to the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and to those who are persecuted for righteousness.

Quote:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5: 17-20)

So, Jesus, the Christ, did not come to abolish the law, not by one single stroke. What then are we to make of His teachings, which transformed nearly every one of the ten commandments as well as many of the purity laws that were subsequently revealed to Moses?

Quote:
52He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old." (Matt 13:52)

The law is clearly valued as treasure, and we are assured that Jesus did not come to abolish the law. But, there is new treasure, and this treasure is linked to the Kingdom of Heaven. The new teachings show the law in a new way, a way that leads from life to eternal life. This is very clearly stated in the story of the rich young man.

Quote:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt 19:16-26)

The young man went away sad because it is so very hard to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, to have eternal life. Note there is no indication that Jesus is talking about the afterlife here. There is the life given through the law; and then there is Something More.

In the Gospel of John we hear quite a lot about eternal life, and usually it is linked to belief in Jesus.

Quote:
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:16)

So, this may mean that eternal life belongs to one who accepts Jesus as the Son of God. But, there is also something more. John shares what Jesus has to say about believing in Him:

Quote:
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (John 12: 44-50)

God’s command leads to eternal life. And what is that command?

Quote:
12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

And in case we didn’t get it the first time:

Quote:
17This is my command: Love each other. (John 15:17)

So, eternal life requires something more than the law. It requires belief in Jesus as the Son of God, which in turn means to obey God’s command to love each other. Pretty simple. So, what were all those teachings about in the Sermon on the Mount, and as recorded elsewhere in the Gospels? Was Jesus going against His word and changing the law?

No.

He was explaining how the law is about love. He was explaining how to achieve the Kingdom of heaven here on earth. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction, but the narrow gate of love leads to the Kingdom.

Don’t murder? Don’t even think bad thoughts about your brother.

Don’t commit adultery? Don’t even look at a woman in lust.

You’re allowed an eye for an eye? Yet you can choose to turn the other cheek. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Forgive.

The points most often brought up to illustrate that Jesus really did change the laws are his teachings about divorce and his healing on the Sabbath. But did He really change those laws, or did He just explain them in the light of compassion? By Hebrew law a man could divorce his wife if he became displeased with her (Deut 24:1). The life of a divorced woman on her own would be very harsh if she was not able to remarry. So Jesus explains, don’t choose that option unless there has been a serious breach in trust.

Quote:
“So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Quote:
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. (Matt 19:6-8)

Keeping the Sabbath might easily be considered the most important of the commandments after the commandments to love God and neighbor. Did Jesus really break the Sabbath? No, on at least two accounts. First, and most straightforward, when Jesus and his disciples are picking grain to eat on the Sabbath, He compares Himself to the temple priests who “desecrate the day and yet are innocent” because they are obligated to perform the Sabbath sacrifice. Jesus refers his critics to the words of the prophet Hosea 6:6 “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Thus, if mercy is even more desired by God than sacrifice, the healings performed by Jesus on the Sabbath are delightful to Him, and further Jesus is the priest. The teaching is again about love and compassion; the Spirit of the law which gives life as Paul would say.

(cont)
 

lunamoth

Will to love
(conclusion)

But, there’s a second and more important thing to keep in mind about Jesus' teachings about the Sabbath. Deuteronomy 5:12 describes the commandment about observing the Sabbath.

Quote:
12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. (Deut 5:12-15)

Observing the Sabbath is three things. On one out of seven days you rest and do no work. You give your household a day of rest as well. And you remember that God freed you from bondage in Egypt. Apparently the Pharisees and other observant Jews had lost sight of this day of rest and instead made it a day of ritualistic rest. The hypocrisy of their actions is pointed out by Jesus when he describes how they will save a sheep from a pit on the Sabbath, and “how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Not a new teaching of the law, but an explanation of the law of love.

Quote:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matt 22:36-40)

All of the laws have always been about love, but in part we lost sight of that. The teachings of Jesus revealed, uncovered, the love buried in the heart of the law. But, even with this good seed in hand we are too weak on our own to bring it to fruition. The crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ, the work done on the cross, plows the hard soil of our hearts so that seed can take root and flourish. So that we can realize the Kingdom of God that is near, within us (Luke 17:21)

peace,
lunamoth
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
astarath said:
Christ's death was an atonement for sin at no point does christ teach that adherence to the law is to stop due to his sacrifice. The law was written to show how god would be pleased with our lives. We are expected to follow them.

Matt 5:17-19

And we're still to follow the will of God.

I am a trinitarian Christian. You can't shake my belief that Christ Jesus was God in the flesh, who became the ultimate atonement for my sin because of His love.

I've already told you that we ARE to follow the ten commandments, however, I'm not bound to follow Jewish law and tradition.

I'm not a Jew.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Mike182 said:
thought so. :)

the laws of the To'rah govern purity, am i correct?

blood sacrifices were asked by YahWeh as atonement for impurity, am i correct?

Christ is believed to be the last blood sacrifice, a belief in him would then surely mean that, for a believer in Christ, their purity is not found in their own blood sacrifices, but in accepting Christ's sacrifice.

so in effect, why uphold what you percieve as an out of date law?

Edit:

but the very nature of the law changes for those who believe Jeshua is the Messiah.

I agree wholeheartedly Mike. Well said. :)
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
astarath said:
Then tell me where you stand,for the christ warned us that we would no them by their fruit and man i smell a rotten apple

Yes, this following passage is so rotten it was one of the readings at our Baha'i wedding:
13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
that is the great misconception there are laws within the law claiming sacrificial practices to claim purity. But the law itself is adherence to God's will and at no point were we expuned from the need to comply with the law.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
astarath said:
that is the great misconception there are laws within the law claiming sacrificial practices to claim purity. But the law itself is adherence to God's will and at no point were we expuned from the need to comply with the law.

i will not claim to know the Jewish scriptures, but am i right in saying that the law was to be maintained only until the coming of the Messiah?

can someone point me to scripture that concerns the role of the Messiah? what was he supposed to do?
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
Lunamoth which commandments did he change and how? Specific passage... he corrects cultural inaccuracies the pharisees had added tol thelaw however he never change a tenet of the law..
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
astarath said:
that is the great misconception there are laws within the law claiming sacrificial practices to claim purity. But the law itself is adherence to God's will and at no point were we expuned from the need to comply with the law.

Our definitions of LAW are different. Jews are bound by laws that myself and other Christians consider tradition.

The laws that I'm bound to as a Christian are the ten commandments and one more...LOVE. Christ was LOVE. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice.

Naturally, a Jew isn't going to agree with me or understand me. (I'm not making as assumption that you are or aren't Jewish, mind you.)

But a Jew can't debunk the foundation of my faith by quoting scripture that I don't believe a Jew is truly going to understand. How can a Jew who doesn't accept Christ as the Messiah, understand what it is to be Christian, a person saved by the very Messiah that the Jew rejects?

I don't understand Jewish custom because...I'm not Jewish.

There's no need to argue.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
astarath said:
Lunamoth which commandments did he change and how? Specific passage... he corrects cultural inaccuracies the pharisees had added tol thelaw however he never change a tenet of the law..

Ummm, did you read the essay? He did not change any of the commandments...he showed us our proper relationship to them: love.
 
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