Paul..fake liar or apostle?

[astarath]

Wrong the passage in which gives the two commandments he actually finishes with these two commandments embody the Law of Moses. It is no additional commandment but rather by following the Law we show love to others and to God's will

 

[astarath]

Mike in the same breath you claim to not know the jewish scripture you also claim to understand the Jewish term of messiah??? Are you aware of what the word Messiah means?

 

[dawny0826]

Wrong the passage in which gives the two commandments he actually finishes with these two commandments embody the Law of Moses. It is no additional commandment but rather by following the Law we show love to others and to God's will

If you understood the cross, you would understand that LOVE is the ultimate fulfillment of the law.

When we LOVE, we are fulfilling the laws. Love is Point #1. It IS the ultimate commandment.

 

[astarath]

It simply means an annointed one. The jewish people's kings and priests were considered annointed one's. The jewish prophecies refer to a king or a priest. The effects of a coming Messiah applied to all "messiah's" John and Jesus both were messiah's for they were both anointed ones. "The coming of a messiah" As so often quited quite simple means the coming of a priest or king.

 

[dawny0826]

It simply means an annointed one. The jewish people's kings and priests were considered annointed one's. The jewish prophecies refer to a king or a priest. The effects of a coming Messiah applied to all "messiah's" John and Jesus both were messiah's for they were both anointed ones. "The coming of a messiah" As so often quited quite simple means the coming of a priest or king.

Then, a Christian's definition of "messiah" differs from yours. Your point?

 

[astarath]

That statement is backwards, when you adhere to the Law you follow the tenets ascribed by Yaheshua and show love. For god gave us these teachings so we would know how to show love and be pleasing to him.

 

[astarath]

Any prophecy concerning the messiah which Mike is currently searching for wsa written in the Judaic context of the word. And so to when it was applied at the time of Yaheshua it meant just that, he was annointed and that is all.

 

[dawny0826]

That statement is backwards, when you adhere to the Law you follow the tenets ascribed by Yaheshua and show love. For god gave us these teachings so we would know how to show love and be pleasing to him.

The Christian is to submit to government. We are to be good citizens.

We are also to follow the ten commandments, the very SAME commandments of Torah. And when I say commandments, I'm NOT referring to Jewish tradition and law. I'm speaking of the TEN commandments that God gave to Moses.

We are also to Love our Neighbor and this is what is said on LOVE...

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments "You shall not commit adultery", "You shall not murder", "You shall not bear false witness.", "You shall not covet", and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love IS the fulfillment of the law."

Romans 13:8-10

We were given this instruction because when we LOVE, we are pleasing God to the fullest. Love is the fulfillment of all of the laws. Christ IS LOVE as God is LOVE. When we LOVE, we are being the ultimate example of what God would have us be.

 

[astarath]

The words meaning held the original Judaic meaning at the time and for you to ignore that meaning means that you will be taking any prophecy or teaching concerning a messiah in the wrong context.

As well in Paul's letters the original herbrew word used when he explained law was "To'rah" it was christians who make new meanings to word who changed it to the speculative laws of sin and death.

Torah obviously the meaning for the book of the law, law, or laws.

Have to go write your responses and i will return to continue the thread

May you find truth and may the spirit illumine your path,

Your brother in the lord... Dan Willis

 

[astarath]

Paul is a liar and blasphemer for him to condone the abolision of the law holds no value and offers proof that he is the wolf in sheeps clothing because he is directly contradicting the will of Yaheshua and God

 

[dawny0826]

The words meaning held the original Judaic meaning at the time and for you to ignore that meaning means that you will be taking any prophecy or teaching concerning a messiah in the wrong context.

It wouldn't matter because Christ has made me complete. It really wouldn't matter. My peace, my life, my all is in the Love that hung in agony on the cross for MY sin. There's nothing that could be said which could ever shake that.

I respect you for your personal convictions. If you're Jewish, I can totally understand where you're coming from w/ your concerns and arguments but I see no point in arguing. I'm a Christian.

Naturally, we're going to see things differently.

As well in Paul's letters the original herbrew word used when he explained law was "To'rah" it was christians who make new meanings to word who changed it to the speculative laws of sin and death.

Again, if your Jewish, your thoughts on this matter make sense. I however, am NOT a Jew.

Torah obviously the meaning for the book of the law, law, or laws.

I choose to follow Christ. There's a profound beauty in my day to day life, knowing that God loved me, the very same God that you love and worship...loved us so much that He came to us, in the flesh and hung in agony so that we wouldn't have to suffer for eternity.

I know not all Christians even believe as I do but I find great peace on a daily basis knowing that God is such an awesome God and He is the God of love.

May you find truth and may the spirit illumine your path,

Your brother in the lord... Dan Willis

And God Bless you on your path as well.

 

[lunamoth]

We are also to Love our Neighbor and this is what is said on LOVE...

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments "You shall not commit adultery", "You shall not murder", "You shall not bear false witness.", "You shall not covet", and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love IS the fulfillment of the law."

Romans 13:8-10

We were given this instruction because when we LOVE, we are pleasing God to the fullest. Love is the fulfillment of all of the laws. Christ IS LOVE as God is LOVE. When we LOVE, we are being the ultimate example of what God would have us be.

Good fruit indeed. Well done Dawny. :clap

 

[joeboonda]

Paul said the Law was good and we should follow it, but that nobody ever has, perfectly, except Jesus. He says the Law is to show us beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are all sinners compared to a perfectly holy God. We are without hope, except through faith in this perfect lamb of God, Jesus who paid the penalty for sin, (death), by dying on the cross and rising again. If we place our trust in His righteousness, and not our own, and let him pay for our sins, instead of trying to pay for them ourselves, we are born again, and have eternal life.

 

[Mike182]

Mike in the same breath you claim to not know the jewish scripture you also claim to understand the Jewish term of messiah??? Are you aware of what the word Messiah means?

i did not claim to understand the jewish term of messiah, let's look at what i said:

"i will not claim to know the Jewish scriptures, but am i right in saying that the law was to be maintained only until the coming of the Messiah?"

i asked if i was right, which is a question and not a claim. was i right?

It simply means an annointed one. The jewish people's kings and priests were considered annointed one's. The jewish prophecies refer to a king or a priest. The effects of a coming Messiah applied to all "messiah's" John and Jesus both were messiah's for they were both anointed ones. "The coming of a messiah" As so often quited quite simple means the coming of a priest or king.

obviously i was not right.

Any prophecy concerning the messiah which Mike is currently searching for wsa written in the Judaic context of the word. And so to when it was applied at the time of Yaheshua it meant just that, he was annointed and that is all.

granted.

but Christians don't see Jesus as just annointed, they believe he is a lot more than that - they believe that he was the Son of God, not just an annointed man or a prophet.

so yes, from your point of view Christians are taking the meaning of Messiah, and indeed the 'law' out of context, creating falsities as you see them. but in the context of the new Christian belief, no other could give the liberating blood sacrifice that is attributed to Jesus on the cross. Paul preached faith in Jesus as an alternative to the law, though under the God of Abraham.

this is a debate that can't be resolved.

 

[BRIMS7ON3]

I know this is an old thread but..

There are SO many points, prophecies, and speculations regarding Paul/Saul that were not brought up....so many that all together prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not a true apostle.

But first things first. I am a "christian", or rather, a follower of Christ. I grew up in a non-denom church, and read Paul all of my life. So please don't accuse me of simply being "Jewish".

First, when a prophet was going to come on the scene with big changes, they were foretold about. Paul is, without doubt, THE most important figure in Christendom....and in fact, when I research things online, I find Paul quoted TEN TIMES more than Jesus.

Yet did Jesus prophecy that he would come? Did ANYone prophecy that Paul would be responsible for "expanding" the Gospel? NO. NEVER. And in FUTURE prophecy, is Paul even mentioned? So you are telling me that the man responsible for Christianity doesn't even get honorable mention in Revelation or other prophetic books?

The FIRST thing you have to do to get to the bottom of this, is SEPARATE Jesus from Paul.

If you cannot read the Gospel of Christ without trying to justify or compare it to Paul, there's a problem. If you have to explain what Jesus meant in light of Paul, there's a problem.

JESUS is the GOSPEL. Yah sent Jesus as HIS messenger...with HIS message. Was Jesus not good enough? Was there need to send someone else to "explain" what Jesus "meant"?? Hogwash.

Jesus told us about the narrow gate vs the wide gate. What do you think that meant? Is it not ever so clear that by claiming "salvation through grace alone" you are opening the "wide gate" that leads to destruction?

Jesus told us that we would accept them that come in HIS name...and not Him, Himself...
Is that not what we do with Paul? Again, most "christians" quote Paul....why is that?

There is the prophecy of the benjamite wolf...Paul?...of the tribe of Benjamin?
There is mention in Revelation of people who "claimed" to be "apostles" and were shunned by ALL of Asia....and we know for certain that Paul claimed to be an apostle before that very group....AND we know that they shunned him. Coincidence?

And MANY, MANY MORE examples are easy to see once you allow God to open your eyes.

The problem is US. The problem is that we are told from the get-go that the 'Bible' is flawless, and inspired, and that if we do not accept this "fact" that we cannot be saved.

That is false. God never took an openly EVIL man and "converted" him by force. NEVER. Paul was used by the government and "religious" at that time to infiltrate those who followed Christ...and boy did he. THAT is why the weeds grow with the wheat. They look VERY similar...and the enemy made sure that Paul's "gospel" paralleled the true Gospel SO much that they are virtually indistinguishable unless you open your heart to the Father and allow Him to show you truth.

We are to LOVE HIM...and be willing to walk away from EVERYONE and EVERYTHING for the truth.

Are you willing? Because if you can't see past the lies and focus on Christ, then the answer is NO.

And that is not even touching on the issue of the Law, which Paul so clearly cursed, and Jesus so clearly upheld..


Seriously...you can make excuses...but if you aren't willing to go and do some real research into this, with an open heart, open eyes, and open ears to the Father, then what is eternity really worth to you? If you aren't willing to say "show me the truth, regardless of how it changes how I think"....then are you really searching for truth, or are you just wanting to walk through the "wide gate"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Can a man preching the Law is a curse truly be an apostle of Yaheshua who taught the Law followed the law and he himself was the fulfillment of that law. Therefore is Paul states that the Law is itself a curse and Yaheshua is the fullfillment of the law does that mean that Paul sees Christ's coming as a curse, truly a contradiction of this nature an accusation towards the character of Yaheshua would logically in my mind indicate that Paul was not receiving his mission from Christ and therefore is a fake a liar and definitely least of all apostle of the lord and his gospel.

Never forget:

Paul's understanding of Jesus was codified long before the Gospels were. In addition to this, the Gospels were produced and circulated with the Pauline letters -- complimentary to one another.

I think that the Gospels were written as an affirmation to Paul, whose witness concerning Jesus came first. There is no correction of Paul in the Gospels for a reason - he was already accepted by Christian communities before the Gospels arrived (Marcion is confirmation of this...).

 

[BRIMS7ON3]

Never forget:

Paul's understanding of Jesus was codified long before the Gospels were. In addition to this, the Gospels were produced and circulated with the Pauline letters -- complimentary to one another.

I think that the Gospels were written as an affirmation to Paul, whose witness concerning Jesus came first. There is no correction of Paul in the Gospels for a reason - he was already accepted by Christian communities before the Gospels arrived (Marcion is confirmation of this...).

Interesting point...and even more interesting that Yah protected truth in the Gospels, as we clearly see in contradictions to Paul. I wonder if the truth was specifically veiled from their eyes...or if they really were just too spiritually dumb to see...

EDIT: Also bear in mind that not all accepted Paul...including the true Apostles, of whom Paul spoke poorly of several times...And so the perpetuation of Paul's letters would have to circulate again and again in places where the truth was not exact in terms of what they were taught. Pauls message is so close that those who accepted him either didn't know the truth, or they were so enamored with such an "easy" way to salvation that he was accepted with ease...

 

[outhouse]

Paul lies, manipulates,condemns the law,claims himself "ABBA", speaks his lessons through his own lips not through God's

As seen in the other thread Christ warned us of people such as these, I come by the name of the lord and you condemn me, But those who come in their own name. him you will accept

Paul's sole purpose in the bible is a test. To see how well you have understood the message of Yaheshua. For Paul is a contradiction to Yaheshua, Man can serve God alone there is no room for the Liar

I dont know about all that.

I surely do not trust paul though

 

[sojourner]

Paul lies, manipulates,condemns the law,claims himself "ABBA", speaks his lessons through his own lips not through God's

As seen in the other thread Christ warned us of people such as these, I come by the name of the lord and you condemn me, But those who come in their own name. him you will accept

Paul's sole purpose in the bible is a test. To see how well you have understood the message of Yaheshua. For Paul is a contradiction to Yaheshua, Man can serve God alone there is no room for the Liar

...but I'm not bitter!

 

[Muffled]

Can a man preching the Law is a curse truly be an apostle of Yaheshua who taught the Law followed the law and he himself was the fulfillment of that law. Therefore is Paul states that the Law is itself a curse and Yaheshua is the fullfillment of the law does that mean that Paul sees Christ's coming as a curse, truly a contradiction of this nature an accusation towards the character of Yaheshua would logically in my mind indicate that Paul was not receiving his mission from Christ and therefore is a fake a liar and definitely least of all apostle of the lord and his gospel.

That is not Paul as the text shows: Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
Ga 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
He says we are under the curse that comes from not keeping the law if we are depending on our works and not on Christ.