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Paul..fake liar or apostle?

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Please elaborate on why you claim I misinterpreted my sources, and why didn't you answer any of the other questions?

I can repeat them for you if you want: Starting with: Why did you say that S-Scholasticus is unreliable, and why is Eusebius reliable?

Why would the Romans have to ban Sabbath practice with threat of imprisonment and killing?

I've already discussed the issue about sources. You're asking the wrong questions of them, and so you're misapplying everything that these sources can tell you. You should be looking at sources that somehow relate to the formation of the early church - from its earliest time until the end of the first century.

The grossest misinterpretation, then, is that you've taken late sources and pretended that they apply to earlier times, when in fact we have earlier sources that do just that.

If you're interested in the separation of the Gentile Christianity from its Jewish roots, you should have started by comparing second temple Judaism with the NT and other early Christian literature.

AND, I did not claim that Eusebius is reliable. That's your fantasy, and it's not even a very good one.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I've already discussed the issue about sources. You're asking the wrong questions of them, and so you're misapplying everything that these sources can tell you. You should be looking at sources that somehow relate to the formation of the early church - from its earliest time until the end of the first century.



The grossest misinterpretation, then, is that you've taken late sources and pretended that they apply to earlier times, when in fact we have earlier sources that do just that.

If you're interested in the separation of the Gentile Christianity from its Jewish roots, you should have started by comparing second temple Judaism with the NT and other early Christian literature.

AND, I did not claim that Eusebius is reliable. That's your fantasy, and it's not even a very good one.

Quote me where I claimed that you claim Eusebius was reliable. It was a question. You obviously don't want to answer why you consider S-Scholasticus unreliable, nor do you want to answer the specifics. You claim you discussed the sources, where? If you write off all Historians of the era as unreliable (especially without explaining why), at what point does ALL history of the subject become unreliable?

Did you even read Scholasticus's quote? It was about HIS time period. The 5th century. Sabbath keeping on the 5th century.

There are basically no solid accounts of the 1st and early 2nd century. At best there are interpolations in Ignatius' writings which attack the "Judaizers" who appear to be the majority. I'd be surprised if there was a movement TOWARDS Sabbath keeping by the 5th century. Do you have any evidence that the Original 1st century church was anything close to the post 5th century "Orthodox" form? There is much evidence of the Ebionites for example, who were the other communities at the time before Marcion?

There are writings of Church Fathers and such, but whether or not they represent the original teachings or what the modernists resemble in the "orthodox" residue is equally inexplainable.

Once again, why do you think the Orthodox felt the need to publicly forbid Sabbath observance on threat of death?

At the very beginning, the Romans made no distinction between Jews and Christians. It wasn't until around Marcion's time that the movement away from the 2nd Temple Judaic influence originated, though it can be said to have been going since the Epistles of Paul and Peter. "The Lawless".



"Away from me, ye doers of Lawlessness". Matthew 7:22-23

PS I'm a big fan of early Christian literature like the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Peter, but not Gospel of Thomas. Maybe Acts of Thomas. I mentioned the Didache too I believe.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Going back further, we have Justin Martyr (who I would have considered a heretic at the time) who clearly refers to the divide between Torah Keeping Jews and the gentilizers.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Going back further, we have Justin Martyr (who I would have considered a heretic at the time) who clearly refers to the divide between Torah Keeping Jews and the gentilizers.

You're embarrassing yourself. Are you just pulling stuff from a website without a care in the world?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Why would I be embarassing myself? You're the one who has dodged every single point.

haha - I have no responsibility to answer questions that deviate from the subject of debate. You've abused your sources, and I have clearly shown how and why. Instead of showing any interest in correcting yourself, you've asked senseless off-topic questions that serve no purpose whatsoever.
 

Shermana

Heretic
haha - I have no responsibility to answer questions that deviate from the subject of debate. You've abused your sources, and I have clearly shown how and why. Instead of showing any interest in correcting yourself, you've asked senseless off-topic questions that serve no purpose whatsoever.

How have I abused my sources, and why has anything I said been a deviation from the concept of the OP? What is there to correct exactly and why is it all off topic? Why doesn't Justin Martyr count as a source?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How have I abused my sources, and why has anything I said been a deviation from the concept of the OP? What is there to correct exactly and why is it all off topic? Why doesn't Justin Martyr count as a source?

I didn't say that Justin doesn't qualify as a source. You would know, had you paid any attention, that Justin is *severely* unreliable and he doesn't pre-date the Ebionites.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How have I abused my sources

Here ya go:

I've already discussed the issue about sources. You're asking the wrong questions of them, and so you're misapplying everything that these sources can tell you. You should be looking at sources that somehow relate to the formation of the early church - from its earliest time until the end of the first century.

The grossest misinterpretation, then, is that you've taken late sources and pretended that they apply to earlier times, when in fact we have earlier sources that do just that.

If you're interested in the separation of the Gentile Christianity from its Jewish roots, you should have started by comparing second temple Judaism with the NT and other early Christian literature.

AND, I did not claim that Eusebius is reliable. That's your fantasy, and it's not even a very good one.

And that's the second time, by the way.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Here ya go:



And that's the second time, by the way.

I see, so you don't feel that even Justin Martyr's account is solid testimony, let alone the fact that the ROMANS ORIGINALLY DIDNT CONSIDER JEWS SEPARATE FROM CHRISTIANS.

Heck, you'd probably throw out Josephus too. So on what historical basis do you hold YOUR side of the Pro-Paul story to exactly? You've thrown out even Justin Martyr who doesn't even quote Paul's epistles once (Strangely), so on what basis do you account your own position exactly?

Well let the reader decide just how well you discussed the source issue and whether your claims of me being off topic are valid or not.

Seriously, what historian do you use for your account?
 
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Otherright

Otherright
Shermana, you aren't going to win against him. We debated ancient literacy rates for days and ended up vehemently disagreeing, as we are from two separate schools of academic thought on the subject.

As a fresh PhD with a ton of honors, he's got the drive to get his sources right, I've learned to respect that in him, and you should as well... although, he's still wrong when it comes to literacy rate in the ancient world. :)
 

Shermana

Heretic
Shermana, you aren't going to win against him. We debated ancient literacy rates for days and ended up vehemently disagreeing, as we are from two separate schools of academic thought on the subject.

As a fresh PhD with a ton of honors, he's got the drive to get his sources right, I've learned to respect that in him, and you should as well... although, he's still wrong when it comes to literacy rate in the ancient world. :)

I can only imagine what sources he uses to base his own beliefs off of.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Shermana, you aren't going to win against him. We debated ancient literacy rates for days and ended up vehemently disagreeing, as we are from two separate schools of academic thought on the subject.

As a fresh PhD with a ton of honors, he's got the drive to get his sources right, I've learned to respect that in him, and you should as well... although, he's still wrong when it comes to literacy rate in the ancient world. :)

I hate to contradict that - but I'm not scheduled to graduate until December or May. I'm in the process now of cleaning up my dissertation to complete the degree and for publication.

I do have a ton of honors, though. :)
 

Otherright

Otherright
I can only imagine what sources he uses to base his own beliefs off of.
I'd like to think he has pretty good sources.

I do a lot of research, but I do a different kind of research. As a writer, when I do an essay or journalistic piece, I'll research the heck out of something. I'll read books on it, form the opinion and go. When its a fiction piece, I can get away with just hitting the highlights and only have to research the highlights.

With a minor in theology, I've read a lot of religious material. I enjoy it. Its almost an obsession for me, kind of like linguistics, but every source I've mentioned, every time, he knew exactly what I was talking about, even when I didn't mention the source, he knew where I'd gotten that source.

Having said this, it seems like you are also very cultured in your material. I'm enjoying reading your guys' replies.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
My apologies. I thought you'd finished past May.

Oh, it's fine. I just couldn't let you keep calling me a PhD in good conscience.

My profs started calling me Dr. Angellous when I was an undergrad, especially when they were upset. haha
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I can only imagine what sources he uses to base his own beliefs off of.

As long as you imagine well.

The question dictates the answer.

I use all the sources at my disposal to reconstruct the best possible understanding of various episodes in history.
 
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