Paul on "the end of the law"

[Simplelogic]

The end of law (law series part 1) - Gods Grace Works

I was wondering if most Christians agreed with the logic in the website above concerning the Law of Moses.

 

[Adstar]

The site seems to be jumping about. But i will give you some thoughts.

The Torah Law was not just the laws of what to do and what not to do. The law also carried punishments and it carried a curse..

Now you will hear some religious people use this term ""The curse of the Law"" The thing is depending on their doctrinal stance you can find two Christians saying this thing and meaning two very different things. One Christian will see the Law in it's entirety as a curse when they say "curse of the Law" While another Christian will see only a part of the law to be the cursed.

Deuteronomy 27
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } 14 ¶And the Levites shall speak, and say unto all the men of Israel with a loud voice,
15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
19 Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.
20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.
21 Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.
22 Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
23 Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.
24 Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen.
25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Daniel spoke of the failure of the Jews to do all the law and this being the reason for the curse coming upon the people of Israel.

Daniel 9
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } 10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.


So the Laws themselves are not a curse but the penalty for failing to do all the law brings a curse..



Galatians 3 p, li { white-space: pr10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


The curse of failing to do the law is death. The message of the Bible is that all sinners shall die.. Eternal death. This is the penalty Jesus took for us when He died on the cross. Jesus takes away the curse of the law by paying the curse. This is what It says in the Bible:
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap;
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Jesus died on the cross..

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The end of law (law series part 1) - Gods Grace Works

I was wondering if most Christians agreed with the logic in the website above concerning the Law of Moses.

Very poor biblical interpretation.

The author uses proof texting, compiling many verses in the NT that are talking about different things and forcing them to speak to one thing.

The writer of this little article cannot read Greek. This is important because when one starts to use English translations to try and understand Greek text, things can go bad in a hurry when you try and compare the translated texts.

Anyway, Paul taught that the end of the law -- that is, the final outcome - the teleos or perfection of the law is grace. If the law is so bad, its end cannot be good.

I don't have enough time at the moment to untangle this web of poor thinking.

 

[Thief]

A quicky for you...

The law of Moses was retroactive.
An eye for an eye....a tooth for a tooth.

As if to balance a weigh scale....harm for harm.

The end of this has been with us from the beginning....forgive.
and of course prevention is best.

The following is proactive.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[Simplelogic]

Thank you all for your thoughts. It seems that most of you agree in the overall sense of the Law being fulfilled in Jesus. It is no longer to be observed by Christians. Is this about right?

 

[Adstar]

Thank you all for your thoughts. It seems that most of you agree in the overall sense of the Law being fulfilled in Jesus. It is no longer to be observed by Christians. Is this about right?

The moral law is still good and right. It is good not to steal or to commit adultery or murder. So it is good to do ones best to learn from the law and follow it.

The overall message of Christianity is that the Law reveals to mankind that he has failed to do the law. Anyone who is truly honest about themselves will look at the law and will know they have broken the laws and thus they are cursed. The Messiah Jesus is the one who lifts to curse and Redeems those who believe Him from the curse that has come upon them by breaking the law.

The trap with the law is that some believed and some still believe that religion is all about striving to keep the laws so as to justify themselves before God so as to gain eternity with God through Law doing, by passing the test. by making it into Gods good books. When people are trapped in this frame of mind they are doomed to be condemned on the day of judgement. Because when one breaks one law it is the same as breaking all the laws..

 

[Simplelogic]

Thank you for your response.

 

[InGodWeTrust]

Thank you all for your thoughts. It seems that most of you agree in the overall sense of the Law being fulfilled in Jesus. It is no longer to be observed by Christians. Is this about right?

Paul is saying that the Jews were so caught up in the quest for righteousness by observing the Law according to their own interpretation, that they failed to recognize true righteousness in Jesus when they saw it. We, as true believers of God through Jesus, have the spiritual enlightenment to see that Jesus represents a righteousness that is attainable through that same spirit that guided Jesus to his.

 

[1prophet]

2 THINGS. FIRST OF ALL............

1. Christians are not required to be under the Law of Moses (God). That is why they are Christians. Christians make up their own laws, their own religions, and basically have nothing to do with the written word of God. Somehow you folks erroneously believe Paul started Christianity and did away with the laws. What power would he have to do this? And Christianity did not start until 325 AD or so. Paul said this...

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Does this sound like someone who would do away with the Laws?

2. Paul talks about 2 sets of Laws - Mosaic Law and Jewish oral law. In Romans 6-7 and part of Galatians 3 he is NOT TALKING ABOUT MOSAIC LAW yet it reads law. Which law? Jewish oral law is what Paul said cannot help us. And who is us? Why do Christians think when Paul says us he is talking about Christians???

The law is in effect or you would not be a sinner. It is that simple.

 

[Simplelogic]

2 THINGS. FIRST OF ALL............

1. Christians are not required to be under the Law of Moses (God). That is why they are Christians. Christians make up their own laws, their own religions, and basically have nothing to do with the written word of God. Somehow you folks erroneously believe Paul started Christianity and did away with the laws. What power would he have to do this? And Christianity did not start until 325 AD or so. Paul said this...

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Does this sound like someone who would do away with the Laws?

2. Paul talks about 2 sets of Laws - Mosaic Law and Jewish oral law. In Romans 6-7 and part of Galatians 3 he is NOT TALKING ABOUT MOSAIC LAW yet it reads law. Which law? Jewish oral law is what Paul said cannot help us. And who is us? Why do Christians think when Paul says us he is talking about Christians???

The law is in effect or you would not be a sinner. It is that simple.

Didn't Paul also say this:

19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ 1 Cor 9:19-21


Also….I don't believe Paul ever refers to the oral commandments. I would like to hear your reasoning behind that assertion.

 

[Pegg]

Didn't Paul also say this:

19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ 1 Cor 9:19-21


Also….I don't believe Paul ever refers to the oral commandments. I would like to hear your reasoning behind that assertion.

The christian scriptures make it clear that law is given to lawless people. 1 Timothy 1:8 Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly,*9 recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless+ and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal* and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 sexually immoral people,* men who practice homosexuality,* kidnappers, liars, perjurers,* and everything else that is in opposition to the wholesome* teaching+11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.+

A lawless person requires laws. And we see this principle played out in societies today... as people commit new crimes, new laws are given to make it illegal. There are some people who will dump rubbish in public parks, so the councils have to create new bylaws to make it illegal for people do that.
A righteous person would not dump their rubbish though, so we can say that the law does not apply to a righteous person because they would never do such a thing. Laws only apply to people who do such things.

And it is this same principle which releases a christian (a follower of Christ) from the mosaic law. Jesus Christ would never disobey any of Gods laws...he is perfectly righteous and those who follow his example likewise choose to live righteously. By living righteously, they have no need of laws any longer because laws are for the lawless ones... not for the righteous. Notice how Paul explains this principle:

Romans 6:15 What follows? Are we to commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness?+ Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey,+ either of sin+ leading to death+ or of obedience leading to righteousness?17 But thanks to God that although you were once the slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that pattern of teaching to which you were handed over. 18 Yes, since you were setfreefrom sin,+ you became slaves to righteousness.​

If you, like Jesus, become a slave of righteousness, of what need do you have for law?

 

[Simplelogic]

The christian scriptures make it clear that law is given to lawless people. 1 Timothy 1:8 Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly,*9 recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless+ and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal* and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 sexually immoral people,* men who practice homosexuality,* kidnappers, liars, perjurers,* and everything else that is in opposition to the wholesome* teaching+11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.+

A lawless person requires laws. And we see this principle played out in societies today... as people commit new crimes, new laws are given to make it illegal. There are some people who will dump rubbish in public parks, so the councils have to create new bylaws to make it illegal for people do that.
A righteous person would not dump their rubbish though, so we can say that the law does not apply to a righteous person because they would never do such a thing. Laws only apply to people who do such things.

And it is this same principle which releases a christian (a follower of Christ) from the mosaic law. Jesus Christ would never disobey any of Gods laws...he is perfectly righteous and those who follow his example likewise choose to live righteously. By living righteously, they have no need of laws any longer because laws are for the lawless ones... not for the righteous. Notice how Paul explains this principle:

Romans 6:15 What follows? Are we to commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness?+ Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey,+ either of sin+ leading to death+ or of obedience leading to righteousness?17 But thanks to God that although you were once the slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that pattern of teaching to which you were handed over. 18 Yes, since you were setfreefrom sin,+ you became slaves to righteousness.​

If you, like Jesus, become a slave of righteousness, of what need do you have for law?

Pegg…can you define righteousness for me?

 

[roger1440]

Do I understand this correctly? The author is using Christian scripture to prove Christian scripture is true. To prove Jesus puts an end to the Mosaic Law Jewish scripture MUST be used, not Christian. Paul was never able to do this. For this reason he gave up on the Jews and went to the Gentiles. Paul misunderstood what was revealed to him.

It is because of the rejection of Paul’s message, Paul went to the Gentiles. The Jews did not buy into Paul’s spiel. They looked at him as a schmuck. Paul then schmoozes with the Gentiles and they buy into Paul’s spiel.

In Paul’s own words:

“Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” (Acts 13:46)

“But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."” (Acts 18:6)​

 

[Pegg]

Do I understand this correctly? The author is using Christian scripture to prove Christian scripture is true. To prove Jesus puts an end to the Mosaic Law Jewish scripture MUST be used, not Christian.

Yes, correct. And Paul does use the Hebrew scriptures to show that the mosaic law was finalised in Christ:

Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry* because he is also the mediator+ of a correspondingly better covenant,+ which has been legally established on better promises.+

7 If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second.+ 8 For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah,* ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,+ because they did not remain in my covenant, so I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.*

He is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures book of Jeremiah where it was foretold that a new covenant would be instituted:

Jeremiah 31:31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,+ ‘my covenant that they broke,+although I was their true master,’* declares Jehovah.”
33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them,+ and in their heart I will write it.+ And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”​

So yes, Paul did do this....he did not misunderstand anything. What is misunderstood is what it means to be a member of the new covenant.

When the law of God is upon a persons heart, they have no need of it to be written on stone tablets because they are no longer 'lawless' if they are living by the righteous standards of Jehovah God.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg…can you define righteousness for me?

It is God who determines the standard for righteousness....and this is how he determines a persons righteousness:

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good.

And what is Jehovah requiring* of you?

Only to exercise justice,*+ to cherish loyalty,*+

And to walk in modesty+ with your God!​

 

[Simplelogic]

It is God who determines the standard for righteousness....and this is how he determines a persons righteousness:

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good.

And what is Jehovah requiring* of you?

Only to exercise justice,*+ to cherish loyalty,*+

And to walk in modesty+ with your God!​

The definition of what is good, what is justice, loyalty and modesty can be found in YHVH's Torah. I agree that it is YHVH who determines what righteousness is. Here is one of the many ways He defines it:

And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Deut 6:25

 

[Simplelogic]

My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness Psalm 119:172

O that you had hearkened to my commandments! then had your peace been as
a river, and your righteousness as the waves of the sea... Isaiah 48:18

How I long for your precepts! In your righteousness preserve my life. ... I long
to obey your commandments! Renew my life with your goodness. … Psalm 119:40

 

[Pegg]

My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness Psalm 119:172

O that you had hearkened to my commandments! then had your peace been as
a river, and your righteousness as the waves of the sea... Isaiah 48:18

How I long for your precepts! In your righteousness preserve my life. ... I long
to obey your commandments! Renew my life with your goodness. … Psalm 119:40

I dont believe the mosaic law represents 'all' of Gods commandments though. For example, the mosaic law allows for divorce whereas I dont believe God ever intended for divorce to be used as a way out of marriage. Jesus said it was given in the law 'out of regard for your hard heartedness'

According to Jesus, there are only two things that can end a marriage... adultery and death.

So when you are talking about righteousness, the mosaic law does not necessarily encompass all that is righteous. It is far more righteous to remain committed to your marriage mate then to divorce them.

The mosaic law also allows men to practice polygamy. It is far more righteous of a man to commit and be faithful to one wife.

The mosaic law also allows for slaves to be bought and sold... it is not a righteous act to actually buy or sell people or to make them slaves. Nor can it be considered righteous to sell your children.

The purpose of the mosaic law is ended... its practices are not relevant in todays world and its certainly not relevant to the lives of Christians.

 

[roger1440]

Yes, correct. And Paul does use the Hebrew scriptures to show that the mosaic law was finalised in Christ:

Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry* because he is also the mediator+ of a correspondingly better covenant,+ which has been legally established on better promises.+

7 If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second.+ 8 For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Jehovah,* ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,+ because they did not remain in my covenant, so I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.*

He is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures book of Jeremiah where it was foretold that a new covenant would be instituted:

Jeremiah 31:31 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,+ ‘my covenant that they broke,+although I was their true master,’* declares Jehovah.”
33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them,+ and in their heart I will write it.+ And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”​

So yes, Paul did do this....he did not misunderstand anything. What is misunderstood is what it means to be a member of the new covenant.

When the law of God is upon a persons heart, they have no need of it to be written on stone tablets because they are no longer 'lawless' if they are living by the righteous standards of Jehovah God.

“For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” (Hebrews 8:6) That is conjecture on Paul’s part or whoever wrote Hebrews. It is found nowhere in Jewish scripture. There is not a Jew on the planet that believes that. Is the whole bunch of them wrong about their own scripture?

The newness of the New Covenant is not the content that makes it new, it’s how it’s revealed that makes it new. The New Covenant is a direct revelation from God. The purpose of the Old Covenant is to lead the Jews to holiness. The New Covenant is that holiness. The author of the Gospel of Mathew understood this.

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church,… (Matthew 16:13-17)​

The Church is founded on not what was revealed to Peter but how it was revealed to Peter. It was a direct revelation from God. Jesus represents the union between God and man, hence the virgin birth. An allegorical interpretation is within the boundaries of orthodox Judaism. It may be a little odd, but not heretical.

 

[Simplelogic]

I dont believe the mosaic law represents 'all' of Gods commandments though. For example, the mosaic law allows for divorce whereas I dont believe God ever intended for divorce to be used as a way out of marriage. Jesus said it was given in the law 'out of regard for your hard heartedness'

According to Jesus, there are only two things that can end a marriage... adultery and death.

So when you are talking about righteousness, the mosaic law does not necessarily encompass all that is righteous. It is far more righteous to remain committed to your marriage mate then to divorce them.

The mosaic law also allows men to practice polygamy. It is far more righteous of a man to commit and be faithful to one wife.

The mosaic law also allows for slaves to be bought and sold... it is not a righteous act to actually buy or sell people or to make them slaves. Nor can it be considered righteous to sell your children.

The purpose of the mosaic law is ended... its practices are not relevant in todays world and its certainly not relevant to the lives of Christians.

You might want to re read the Torah in regards to divorce. You will find that Yeshua was teaching the actual Torah!