Paul on "the end of the law"

[Simplelogic]

So the wife is considered to be 'one flesh' with her husband. This means that he too is her flesh as the Christian scriptures point out:

1Cor 7:3 Let the husband render to [his] wife her due;+but let the wife also do likewise to [her] husband.+4 The wife does not exercise authority over her own body, but her husband does;+ likewise, also, the husband does not exercise authority over his own body, but his wife does​

If we really take Gods view on the matter, a husband and wife belong to 'each other' ....the husband is responsible to his wife just as much as a wife is responsible to her husband. And so if a husband brings another woman into their bed, then he is not really fulfilling his vow to his wife, or to God who created the marriage union...and this is where polygamy really fails and it tears apart that 'one flesh' union that God created.

I think you know my position on Paul's writings by now. This is completely contrary to the Torah of YHVH. The woman has no authority over the body of a man...ever. She belongs to him and she is to serve him. He does NOT serve her. I realize that this all seems kinda crazy. The truth is that there are few righteous men on the earth today who follow after YHVH's commandments. Most men are not worthy for this kind of devotion and service from a women. Because of this, women have become experts at controlling their men. I don't want to come across like I am bashing women. Men will be the ones responsible to YHVH the failures of marriage in general.

Peter says the same concerning marriage:

1In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
7You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:1-7

 

[Pegg]

I'm not sure if this is the best forum to start this discussion. It is truly a topic in itself that will not be easily resolved, considering the cultural shock and emotional reactions it provokes. I will answer your question concerning king David and YHVH's command not to "multiply wives". This command was not speaking against a man's ability to take more than one wife. YHVH commands men to take on their brothers wives if they die. YHVH does not contradict His own word ever. This is in reference to a man who multiplies wives in a greedy way, or for selfish reasons. Solomon definitely broke this commandment...not David.

Lets look at the words of YHVH spoken through the prophet Samuel to David:

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says Yehovah God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 2 Samuel: 12:7-8

This passage clearly tells us that YHVH Himself gave David multiple wives. He even tells David that He would have given him more wives as well!!

You really think this passages says that David inherited the wives of Saul? and that he would have given him even more wives??

9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12: 9

Notice that YHVH is angry with David for ONE reason. Breaking the Torah. Not for taking multiple wives. For people to suggest that this is now a sin is contrary to our heavenly Father's ways. We don't get to decide what sin is...He does. Nor does YHVH change or evolve.

I realize that there is much more to this discussion. I am also aware of the way Gen 2:23 is used to suggest monogamy was the original intent. Others use Yeshua's words to act like he was against the Father's commandments. This couldn't be further from the truth. Yeshua was perfectly Torah observant and he had to be in order to be an acceptable sacrifice. Polygamy was still being practiced in the first century and Yeshua NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CONCEPT. Yeshua mentions Gen 2:23 because he is reiterating how much God hates divorce! Which He most certainly does.

Why did Abraham have only one wife?

And why did Noah only have one wife?

Both were considered to be righteous men... Abraham was called Gods 'friend' ... why didnt he practice polygamy??

 

[Pegg]

I think you know my position on Paul's writings by now. This is completely contrary to the Torah of YHVH. The woman has no authority over the body of a man...ever. She belongs to him and she is to serve him. He does NOT serve her. I realize that this all seems kinda crazy. The truth is that there are few righteous men on the earth today who follow after YHVH's commandments. Most men are not worthy for this kind of devotion and service from a women. Because of this, women have become experts at controlling their men. I don't want to come across like I am bashing women. Men will be the ones responsible to YHVH the failures of marriage in general.

Yes, they certainly will.

And if a wife is not honored by her husband, his prayers are hindered

1Peter 3;7 You husbands, in the same way, continue dwelling with them according to knowledge.* Assign them honor+ as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you+ of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered.​

So lets just put it this way, if a man treats his wife in a way that makes her feel less of a person by dishonoring her, God will not hear his prayers. That is very serious indeed. And do you really think that a woman feels honored when her husbands decides he needs a new wife??? Is that any way to show 'honor' to his wife?

You dont assign someone honor by sending them to the back of the room and making them wait on you hand and foot as if they are there to serve you and then say, btw, i'm getting a new wife.
But thats the risk you take..... righteousness is as the mosaic law states "you must love your neighbor as yourself" For a polygamist to apply this law correctly, he would have to allow his wife to take another husband and he would have to live with another man in the house.

Leviticus 19:18 “‘You must not take vengeance+ nor hold a grudge against the sons of your people, and you must love your fellow man as yourself.+ I am Jehovah.​

To show love to your fellow as you love yourself, you must apply the same standards to them as you do to yourself. If you give yourself something, you must likewise give the same to your fellowman. Other wise you are not loving as you love yourself.

This counsel comes from a man who understood the mosaic law, knew how it applies in a marriage and promoted monogamy for Christians:

Ephesians 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body,* but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation,30 because we are members of his body.+31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to*his wife, and the two will be one flesh.”​

 

[Simplelogic]

This has nothing to do with honor according to the Torah. If it did then YHVH was wrong to permit men to have multiple wives. He was also wrong to give David multiple wives. You have God going against God.

A man can honor one wife, or more than one. Many civilizations have down this and many still do today.

 

[Simplelogic]

You really think this passages says that David inherited the wives of Saul? and that he would have given him even more wives??





Why did Abraham have only one wife?

And why did Noah only have one wife?

Both were considered to be righteous men... Abraham was called Gods 'friend' ... why didnt he practice polygamy??

Abraham did have relations with his concubine so I'm not sure your point. I can make a list of righteous men who had one wife, I can make another list of righteous men that had multiple. None of this makes any difference. It is YHVH who defines what is good and acceptable.

 

[Pegg]

This has nothing to do with honor according to the Torah. If it did then YHVH was wrong to permit men to have multiple wives. He was also wrong to give David multiple wives. You have God going against God.

A man can honor one wife, or more than one. Many civilizations have down this and many still do today.

God didn't 'permit' it.... he 'tolerated' it. By the time the Mosaic law was given, man had been practicing polygamy for 2,000 years. It was a culturally ingrained trait by the time God sent Moses. And what we see in the writings of Moses was that the leader of the new nation was not permitted to practice it....but of course, men being men continued to do so regardless.

Jesus Christ set things right when he re-instituted the original standard for his followers. And his followers took it to heart and stopped practicing polygamy.

But i would like to ask you.... would you be happy if your own wife chose to marry another man? Would that be acceptable to you?

 

[Pegg]

Abraham did have relations with his concubine so I'm not sure your point. I can make a list of righteous men who had one wife, I can make another list of righteous men that had multiple. None of this makes any difference. It is YHVH who defines what is good and acceptable.

The culture in Abrahams day permitted a barren wife to provide her husband with a handmaiden so that she may procure a child for herself under her name. Its a little bit like surrogacy today. Women who cannot have children naturally, can obtain a surrogate to carry the child of her husband on her behalf. And that is what Sarah did with her handmaiden, Hagar. She asked Abraham to give her a child through Hagar... Abraham did not want to do so btw, but his wife kept pleading with him.

So this was not a case of a man who wanted to have an extra wifey or have sex with a younger woman to please himself. NO. Abraham, being the righteous man he was, was completely committed to his one wife. And Abraham and Sarah were both close to 80 years old before he had relations with Hagar to produce a child for Sarah. That in itself shows that he was not a man who thought much of polygamy...otherwise he would have had other wives in his younger years.

 

[Simplelogic]

God didn't 'permit' it.... he 'tolerated' it. By the time the Mosaic law was given, man had been practicing polygamy for 2,000 years. It was a culturally ingrained trait by the time God sent Moses. And what we see in the writings of Moses was that the leader of the new nation was not permitted to practice it....but of course, men being men continued to do so regardless.

Jesus Christ set things right when he re-instituted the original standard for his followers. And his followers took it to heart and stopped practicing polygamy.

But i would like to ask you.... would you be happy if your own wife chose to marry another man? Would that be acceptable to you?

Leaders were allowed to have more than one wife. You are misunderstanding the Torah. Remember YHVH Himself gave David his wives.

Of course I wouldn't be happy if my wife had another husband. This is an abomination and a sin which incurs the death penalty in YHVH's eyes. I don't think you are fully grasping the difference between men and woman and how YHVH tells us we should act in a marriage.

 

[Pegg]

Leaders were allowed to have more than one wife. You are misunderstanding the Torah. Remember YHVH Himself gave David his wives.

Lets think about Davids path. Lets ask why the prophet Samuel had such stern words for David. David committed adultery with Bathsheba, and when she became pregnant by him, he orchestrated the death of the womans husband so that he might not get found out. This is why the prophet Samuel came to speak with David and his sins were laid bare.

Does this sound like righteousness?

Also we read about David:

2Samuel 5:13 Meantime, David went on taking more concubines+ and wives+ out of Jerusalem after he came from He′bron; and more sons and daughters continued to be born to David.​

Does the above verse say that God gave wives to David ... or does it say David was 'taking more' wives and concubines?
And isn't this against the law for kings in the Torah?

Deut 17:14, 17 “Neither should he take many wives for himself, so that his heart may not go astray;.”
​

Now, lets think about this. Can we honestly say that it was an act of 'righteousness' on the part of David to ignore this commandment of Jehovah? And why would the man with the most privileges, the one who is said to represent God on his throne, be told he could not take many wives?
Why did God not want the king to take many wives, and how do you think he felt as seeing David breaking the commandments?

Of course I wouldn't be happy if my wife had another husband. This is an abomination and a sin which incurs the death penalty in YHVH's eyes. I don't think you are fully grasping the difference between men and woman and how YHVH tells us we should act in a marriage.

Thanks for your honest reply. And let me say as a woman, I would not be happy either if my husband decided to take another wife ( I would be out the door rather quickly )
But in understanding why polygamy is not a righteous endeavor, lets go back to the mosaic law where it says that you must 'love your fellow as yourself'

When a person loves himself, he treats himself pretty well. He looks after himself and he does what is pleasing to himself, he doesnt do things to harm or hurt himself. Now the law required that a person who loves himself do likewise to his fellowman. That is why Jesus said "“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean"

When it comes to polygamy, if it is not acceptable to a man that his wife takes another man, then nor should it be acceptable for him to take another woman. This is what Gods law about 'love your fellow as yourself' actually means. If you dont want something done to you, then don't do it to someone else and vice versa, if you want something done to you, you must also do it to someone else (in other words, if you want to take a new wife, you must allow your wife to take a new husband) Do to her as you want done to do to yourself. Does that make sense?

And this is why Jesus was such a marvelous teacher of the mosaic law... he brought out the deep spiritual truth of that law and helped us to see how to apply these laws. That is why christians stopped the practice of polygamy. It is a hurtful practice to women, it demeans their role as a wife and partner to their husband, it causes friction and division and it destroys the 'oneness' of the husband and wife relationship. And worse, it actually makes the man an adulterer in Gods eyes.

 

[Simplelogic]

Lets think about Davids path. Lets ask why the prophet Samuel had such stern words for David. David committed adultery with Bathsheba, and when she became pregnant by him, he orchestrated the death of the womans husband so that he might not get found out. This is why the prophet Samuel came to speak with David and his sins were laid bare.

Does this sound like righteousness?

Also we read about David:

2Samuel 5:13 Meantime, David went on taking more concubines+ and wives+ out of Jerusalem after he came from He′bron; and more sons and daughters continued to be born to David.​

Does the above verse say that God gave wives to David ... or does it say David was 'taking more' wives and concubines?
And isn't this against the law for kings in the Torah?

Deut 17:14, 17 “Neither should he take many wives for himself, so that his heart may not go astray;.”
​

Now, lets think about this. Can we honestly say that it was an act of 'righteousness' on the part of David to ignore this commandment of Jehovah? And why would the man with the most privileges, the one who is said to represent God on his throne, be told he could not take many wives?
Why did God not want the king to take many wives, and how do you think he felt as seeing David breaking the commandments?



Thanks for your honest reply. And let me say as a woman, I would not be happy either if my husband decided to take another wife ( I would be out the door rather quickly )
But in understanding why polygamy is not a righteous endeavor, lets go back to the mosaic law where it says that you must 'love your fellow as yourself'

When a person loves himself, he treats himself pretty well. He looks after himself and he does what is pleasing to himself, he doesnt do things to harm or hurt himself. Now the law required that a person who loves himself do likewise to his fellowman. That is why Jesus said "“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean"

When it comes to polygamy, if it is not acceptable to a man that his wife takes another man, then nor should it be acceptable for him to take another woman. This is what Gods law about 'love your fellow as yourself' actually means. If you dont want something done to you, then don't do it to someone else and vice versa, if you want something done to you, you must also do it to someone else (in other words, if you want to take a new wife, you must allow your wife to take a new husband) Do to her as you want done to do to yourself. Does that make sense?

And this is why Jesus was such a marvelous teacher of the mosaic law... he brought out the deep spiritual truth of that law and helped us to see how to apply these laws. That is why christians stopped the practice of polygamy. It is a hurtful practice to women, it demeans their role as a wife and partner to their husband, it causes friction and division and it destroys the 'oneness' of the husband and wife relationship. And worse, it actually makes the man an adulterer in Gods eyes.

Your entire argument is based on the false notion that men and women are the same. That means if a man do something, so can a women. This logic is completely backwards and contrary to YHVH.

Men are commanded to do MANY things which women are not. Men are allowed to have more than one wife if they wish. A woman certainly is forbidden. Just because it is not equal does not mean it is not right. Woman are subordinates to men in YHVH's eyes, and men are allowed things that women aren't.

You can't use 2 Samuel 5:13 to undo 2 Samuel 12. Both are true. Of course David picked his wives, but God clearly condoned it so much that He took responsibility for giving David these wives. I will show you the text again and please remember, Samuel is saying the words "thus says the Lord". This means that YHVH Himself is speaking here…not Samuel.

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says Yehovah God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 2 Samuel: 12:7-8

Nor are you going to get any mileage with me by trying to discredit King David. YHVH tells us plainly and in no uncertain terms that David was unique in His love for YHVH and was more diligent at following Him than anyone else. David committed very serious sins but he fully repented and was restored to YHVH. God NEVER reprimands David for taking multiple wives…EVER. Why would He? He actually gave him the wives in the first place!

The commands in the Torah are clear that a man can have more than one wife, though man can't take from one wife to give to another. This is what the Torah/YHVH stipulates. Also, a man is REQUIRED to marry his brothers wife if he dies. Women are always to be under the protection of a man, whether her father or her husband. This man is also allowed to nullify the things the woman says.

1And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded. 2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

3If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth; 4And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand. 5But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.

6And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul; 7And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand. 8But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her. Numbers 30:1-6

Doesn't sound like men and woman are equals does it. That is because they are not!

 

[Simplelogic]

16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.” Genesis 3:16

The Hebrew word for "rule" is the same one used for a King in authority. Women is mans subject.

 

[Pegg]

Your entire argument is based on the false notion that men and women are the same. That means if a man do something, so can a women. This logic is completely backwards and contrary to YHVH.

If a husband and wife are not considered of equal value, why does the mosaic law demand that a mother be honored in the same way as the father is honored?

Lev 20:9 “‘If there is any man who curses* his father or his mother, he should be put to death without fail.+ Since he has cursed his father or his mother, his own blood is upon him.

If what you are saying is true, then the punishment for cursing your mother should not be as sever as for cursing your father. If a wife is really not equal to the husband, then the punishment should not be equal either. It should logically be a lesser punishment for cursing the wife.
We also see that the 'law of your mother' is just as important as the law of your father:

Proverbs 1:8 Listen, my son, to the discipline of your father,+ and do not forsake the law of your mother.

If the wife is not equal to the father, then why should the children obey the law of their mother? Of course the man is the head of the family, but that does not mean that the wife is not a head of her family... her law in the home is just as valuable as his law according to the mosaic law.

And the mosaic law also shows us that a mother was to be respected just as much as the father: Lev 19: 3 “‘Each of you should respect* his mother and his father,

Eve was created 'from the man' and even the Hebrew expression for woman ʼish·shah′ literally means a female man, which is also rendered “wife.”

How can it be that a woman is a lesser person then a man? A woman is a man (ie, wo-man) ... a feminine man. How is that not equal? She was Adams equal...she was Adam!

Men are commanded to do MANY things which women are not. Men are allowed to have more than one wife if they wish. A woman certainly is forbidden. Just because it is not equal does not mean it is not right. Woman are subordinates to men in YHVH's eyes, and men are allowed things that women aren't.

Ok, so let me ask again as to why God did not provide Adam with multiple wives?

And how do you explain the 'one flesh' relationship between a husband and wife as shown in Genesis :

24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to* his wife, and they will become one flesh​

How does polygamy fit in with this 'one flesh' relationship???

You can't use 2 Samuel 5:13 to undo 2 Samuel 12. Both are true. Of course David picked his wives, but God clearly condoned it so much that He took responsibility for giving David these wives. I will show you the text again and please remember, Samuel is saying the words "thus says the Lord". This means that YHVH Himself is speaking here…not Samuel.

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says Yehovah God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 2 Samuel: 12:7-8

8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care,
​

This doesnt say he gave Sauls wives to be his own wives. And actually, if that is what you think it means, then it is a crime against the mosaic law , why?
Because David was married to one of Sauls daughters, Michal. And that means, he would have been forbidden from being married or having relations with Michals mother (who was one of Sauls wives)

Leviticus 20:14 “‘If a man takes a woman and her mother, it is an obscene act.*+ They should burn him and them in the fire,+ so that obscene conduct may not continue among you.

So this passage cannot mean that Sauls wives became Davids wives. That would be a crime worthy of death.

Nor are you going to get any mileage with me by trying to discredit King David. YHVH tells us plainly and in no uncertain terms that David was unique in His love for YHVH and was more diligent at following Him than anyone else. David committed very serious sins but he fully repented and was restored to YHVH. God NEVER reprimands David for taking multiple wives…EVER. Why would He? He actually gave him the wives in the first place!

Gods mercy and forgiveness is absolute and it was shown toward David because he was wholeheartedly repentant for his sins. I am not trying to discredit David. But David was a king of Isreal and knew the law which stated:

"“[The king] should also not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside.” David had a lot to repent over and was forgiven because he was sincere. But lets be honest, God did not give him all those woman as wives. They became part of his royal court and were members of the royal family and were cared for by David. He wasnt sleeping with them all, nor could they have been his wives according to the mosaic law.

 

[Pegg]

The commands in the Torah are clear that a man can have more than one wife, though man can't take from one wife to give to another. This is what the Torah/YHVH stipulates. Also, a man is REQUIRED to marry his brothers wife if he dies. Women are always to be under the protection of a man, whether her father or her husband. This man is also allowed to nullify the things the woman says.

Really? So why didnt Abraham nullify Sarahs request for him to send his firstborn son away into the wilderness? When Sarah wanted to send Hagar and Ishmael away, Abraham was displeased with her for he had grown to love Ishmael.... yet God stood up for Sarah and told Abraham to listen to her:

9 But Sarah kept noticing that the son of Ha′gar+ the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, was mocking Isaac.+10 So she said to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir along with my son, with Isaac!”+11 But what she said about his son was very displeasing to Abraham.+12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not be displeased by what Sarah is saying to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her,* for what will be called your offspring* will be through Isaac.​

So do you really think that a man has absolute authority to nullify the wishes and requests of his wife?

6And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul; 7And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand. 8But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her. Numbers 30:1-6

Doesn't sound like men and woman are equals does it. That is because they are not!

Men are the caretakers of woman, with that i agree. But that doesnt mean the woman are not equal. Its not like the mosaic law says that a woman cannot make her own vows to Jehovah. The fact that a woman could make vows to God shows that God accepts the service of woman just as he accepts the service of men. If we were not viewed by God as equal to men, then why would he accept service from females at all? He demanded only the very best of the herds in sacrifice and anything less was not acceptable by him... if women were anything less then men, then surely he would not accept them in his service and at times in the same positions as men such as judges and prophets.

If we take the mosaic law view, that a woman is an extension of a man, then we can understand why the woman or daughter needs her husband or fathers permission before she commit herself to other pursuits. I dont see that as proof that a woman is not equal to a man though. We have been assigned different roles and we are responsible to each other and to God... but our role as a woman does not diminish our equality with a man.... women were created to be mans equals according to the mosaic law:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us+ make man in our image,+ according to our likeness,+ and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”+27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.​

Gen 2:18 Then Jehovah God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”...

Women were created to 'complement' the man... How do you define a 'compliment'?

 

[Simplelogic]

Abraham did not nullify Sarah because YHVH intervened. This does not mean that Abraham didn't have the authority to do so. It also is a testament to the humility real men are meant to live out. God correcting Abraham has nothing to do with the authority structure which all men and women are meant to uphold.

Regarding David: He most certainly took Saul's wives as his own. This does not mean that he took every single one…the text never says that. Of course David did not marry his own relative.

Regarding Gen 1:26: You are simply reading into the text something that isn't there imho. Becoming "one flesh" is talking about the union that is created in marriage. From that point on the women is connected to the man, physically and spiritually. This does not mean that another woman can't be connected to that man, the same rule would apply. They would become one flesh and he becomes her new authority and identity. Obviously nobody had your view of the text throughout the centuries. They clearly understood that men could have more than one wife. Were they all just reading it wrong the whole time? If your interpretation is correct, you also have to assume that God just forgot to address this gross misunderstanding of His will for thousands of years. YHVH was very clear to outline exactly what sin was and what it wasn't. He reprimanded Israel over and over again for breaking His commandments. Never does YHVH mention this as being a sin, nor did He ever confront Israel for practicing this concept. This fact alone should be reason enough, but there is more. YHVH actually commands polygamy in certain circumstances! This can't be avoided and the only way to get around it is to suggest the evolutionary God concept of Christianity. Namely that God's law was the problem so He came to fix the problems that He originally caused. Of course I don't buy this logic at all.

 

[Pegg]

Abraham did not nullify Sarah because YHVH intervened. This does not mean that Abraham didn't have the authority to do so. It also is a testament to the humility real men are meant to live out. God correcting Abraham has nothing to do with the authority structure which all men and women are meant to uphold.

no, of course and im not suggesting that the account does indicate that at all.

But what it does show is that a mans will does not override the will of his wife. In the case of Abraham and Sarah, they both wanted different things. She wanted Ishmael to leave, and he wanted Ishmael to stay. And thats not a small thing asking that a member of the family (Abrahams flesh and blood) be removed from the family. Thats a huge decision which would have been very painful for Abraham. Yet Sarahs will in the matter was reaffirmed by God and Abraham had to send his son away. Now if God did not intervene, then surely he would not have sent his son away... it was only due to Gods intervention.

Why would God want Abraham to listen to his wife if she was not his equal and her will was not important?

Regarding David: He most certainly took Saul's wives as his own. This does not mean that he took every single one…the text never says that. Of course David did not marry his own relative.

good im glad you recognize that. But there is nothing in the text to say that he took any of sauls wives as his own. It only says he to 'took care of them' as far as i can see. He did have many wives and of the wives named in the scriptures, none of them are named as sauls wives:

Michal - Sauls youngest daughter
Ahinoam - the daughter of A·him′a·az
Abigail - widow of Nabal
Maacah - the daughter of Tal′mai the king of Gesh′ur
Haggith
Abital
Eglah
Bath-sheba

Regarding Gen 1:26: You are simply reading into the text something that isn't there imho. Becoming "one flesh" is talking about the union that is created in marriage. From that point on the women is connected to the man, physically and spiritually. This does not mean that another woman can't be connected to that man, the same rule would apply. They would become one flesh and he becomes her new authority and identity. Obviously nobody had your view of the text throughout the centuries. They clearly understood that men could have more than one wife. Were they all just reading it wrong the whole time
If your interpretation is correct, you also have to assume that God just forgot to address this gross misunderstanding of His will for thousands of years.

Thankfully he did set things straight when the time was right, through the Messiah. Jesus made it clearly plain that a man was an adulterer if he even divorced his wife and then married another.... how much moreso is he an adulterer if he marries more then one women?
Jesus was a jew and he did not take the view that you and many others take in regard to marriage. And it seems that even his own family were not polygamous...Joseph only married Mary and Jesus did not grow up in a polygamous household. He also did not treat women in the way the people of his day treated them... keeping women at a distance and not speaking to them in public etc etc

Notice how Jesus rejects the notion of divorce:
Matt 19: 3 And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?”+4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female+5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?+6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives,+ but that has not been the case from the beginning.+9 I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality,* and marries another commits adultery.”

Its pretty obvious that God designed marriage to be a monogomous arrangement. And Jesus really lifted the bar and improved the lives of many woman by making monogomy the standard for his followers.

YHVH was very clear to outline exactly sin was and what it wasn't. He reprimanded Israel over and over again for breaking His commandments. Never does YHVH mention this as being a sin, nor did He ever confront Israel for practicing this concept. This fact alone should be reason enough, but there is more. YHVH actually commands polygamy in certain circumstances! This can't be avoided and the only way to get around it is to suggest the evolutionary God concept of Christianity. Namely that God's law was the problem so He came to fix the problems that He originally caused. Of course I don't buy this logic at all.

The isrealites were already practicing polygamy, along with every other nation at that time, and had been for some time. Jehovah knew that big changes would not be received well....they had trouble even adapting to small changes let alone big ones. And what would those families who were in polygamous marriages do if God suddenly said no more polygamy back then? It would have caused more problems for them. So the fact that he held off does not change what his original ideals for marriage was.

But you still havnt' answered the question i've asked about Adam and why God only gave him one wife? I guess thats a hard question to answer..... dont you think it at least shows us something about Gods plan for marriage??? The institution of marriage was first devised by him and it consisted of one man and one woman and in Gods view, that was 'very good'
After Adam sinned, his imperfect children began to do things differently and polygamy was one of those things.

 

[Pegg]

Simplelogic, i just realised that we are in a Christian DIR...I if you are a christian, you should know and understand what Christ was teaching... if you are promoting or approving of polygamy, then that is not a christian teaching or practice.

 

[Simplelogic]

YHVH corrected Abraham because Abraham had the authority to override his wife. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Man is responsible to YHVH, woman is responsible to man. YHVH showed Abraham that he needed to adhere to his wife's wishes. This does not negate the authority structure laid out in the Torah. Men still have the authority to override their wives decisions.

Taking a women "into his care" means a wife. This is plain in the text because part of YHVH's point was that David did not need to go after another mans wife because He had already given him numerous wives!! This can't be explained away and is obviously what the text is saying.

Regarding Yeshua: Let me first say that I believe 100% in the commands of Yeshua. Yeshua taught the same exact commands as written in the Law of Moses. He was not allowed to add to it or subtract from it (see Deut 13 and Deut 4). If he did then he was a false messiah. Yeshua taught against adding to the commandments (which the pharisees were doing) and against "anti-nomia" or "law negation". He even goes so far to say that whoever annuls one of the LEAST of the commands in Torah will be called least!! You have wrongly assumed that Yeshua was advocating against plural marriages when Yeshua SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THIS PRACTICE. Yeshua was talking ONLY about divorce regulations. In fact, he was teaching exactly what the Law of Moses says about divorce!! Pharisees in the first century were divorcing their wives for not keeping the house clean. They weren't even giving them a proper certificate of divorce so that they could remarry!! Yeshua corrects the pharisees about God's stance on divorce…He hates it. I would be happy to prove these facts to you concerning divorce laws. The problem is that few people know what the Torah actually says about divorce and that means they don't know what the Pharisees were doing to break this command.

You are still asserting that Yeshua somehow changed something about the Law of Moses. Maybe we should do another thread on this topic. I challenge you to prove this assertion. I have studied every command of Yeshua in detail and I assure you that he never once went against the Torah.

 

[Simplelogic]

[QUOTE="Pegg, post: 4027193, member: 23994"
The isrealites were already practicing polygamy, along with every other nation at that time, and had been for some time. Jehovah knew that big changes would not be received well....they had trouble even adapting to small changes let alone big ones. And what would those families who were in polygamous marriages do if God suddenly said no more polygamy back then? It would have caused more problems for them. So the fact that he held off does not change what his original ideals for marriage was.

But you still havnt' answered the question i've asked about Adam and why God only gave him one wife? I guess thats a hard question to answer..... dont you think it at least shows us something about Gods plan for marriage??? The institution of marriage was first devised by him and it consisted of one man and one woman and in Gods view, that was 'very good'
After Adam sinned, his imperfect children began to do things differently and polygamy was one of those things. [/QUOTE]

Let me get this straight. You claimed earlier that having multiple wives prohibits a man from "honoring" his wife…correct? Now you are claiming that because polygamy was the culture, He allowed it for thousands of years and even commanded men to at times??? So that means God allowed men to "dishonor" their wives and just never thought it worthy to bring up?? Does this make any sense to you Pegg?

God giving one wife in the garden does NOTHING to prove your argument, especially in light of the direct command for men to take up their brothers wife (if he died). God never commanded men to have one wife and He never commanded them to have more than one. There were many righteous men who had one wife, so what. There were also many righteous men who had multiple. The obvious point here is that YHVH doesn't factor this into the equation when determining which men are righteous and which men aren't. It has nothing to do with it because it is NOT WRONG!

 

[Simplelogic]

Check out this future prophecy concerning "the branch" or "Messiah".

1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

2In that day shall the branch (Messiah) of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall beexcellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4: 1-3

 

[Simplelogic]

Simplelogic, i just realised that we are in a Christian DIR...I if you are a christian, you should know and understand what Christ was teaching... if you are promoting or approving of polygamy, then that is not a christian teaching or practice.

I am not a Christian..I follow Yeshua. Also, you are the one that took the thread down this path when I said we shouldn't so...