Paul on "the end of the law"

[Simplelogic]

[QUOTEThe mosaic law also allows men to practice polygamy. It is far more righteous of a man to commit and be faithful to one wife.[/QUOTE]

Why do you say this. On what grounds do you believe it is "more" righteous?? YHVH never said that and neither did Yeshua. We live in a monogamous society so we will always feel more comfortable with what we grew up with.

 

[Simplelogic]

[QUOTEThe mosaic law also allows for slaves to be bought and sold... it is not a righteous act to actually buy or sell people or to make them slaves. Nor can it be considered righteous to sell your children. [/QUOTE]

Are you saying that YHVH is unrighteous??

 

[Pegg]

You might want to re read the Torah in regards to divorce. You will find that Yeshua was teaching the actual Torah!

Do you think God intended for a man to divorce his wife?

 

[Pegg]

[QUOTEThe mosaic law also allows men to practice polygamy. It is far more righteous of a man to commit and be faithful to one wife.

Why do you say this. On what grounds do you believe it is "more" righteous?? YHVH never said that and neither did Yeshua. We live in a monogamous society so we will always feel more comfortable with what we grew up with.[/QUOTE]

Do you think God intended for a man to practice polygamy?

 

[Pegg]

[QUOTEThe mosaic law also allows for slaves to be bought and sold... it is not a righteous act to actually buy or sell people or to make them slaves. Nor can it be considered righteous to sell your children.

Are you saying that YHVH is unrighteous??[/QUOTE]

Do you think it was God who instituted slavery?

 

[Simplelogic]

Are you saying that YHVH is unrighteous??

Do you think it was God who instituted slavery?[/QUOTE]
If your definition of "slavery" is the ability for one man to own the working rights of another than YES.

 

[Simplelogic]

So you don't believe it was God who gave these commands to Moses then.

 

[Simplelogic]

Why do you say this. On what grounds do you believe it is "more" righteous?? YHVH never said that and neither did Yeshua. We live in a monogamous society so we will always feel more comfortable with what we grew up with.

Do you think God intended for a man to practice polygamy?[/QUOTE]

Yes

 

[Simplelogic]

It was always allowed for man to practice such.

 

[Pegg]

Yes

Can you explain then why he didnt give Adam more then one wife? Why only Eve??

And why did he say they were to become 'one flesh'

 

[Pegg]

It was always allowed for man to practice such.

Adam too?

 

[Simplelogic]

Adam too?

she was the only woman alive at the time in the garden

 

[Pegg]

Do you think it was God who instituted slavery?

If your definition of "slavery" is the ability for one man to own the working rights of another than YES.[/QUOTE]

I think you should read Genesis once more:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us+ make man in our image,+ according to our likeness,+and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”+
​

Tell me, which of Gods creations did man have permission to dominate? Do you notice anything missing from this list?

 

[Pegg]

she was the only woman alive at the time in the garden

Yes, and it was God who created her. So if he intended for a man to have many wives, then why only create one woman for Adam?

 

[Simplelogic]

Yes, and it was God who created her. So if he intended for a man to have many wives, then why only create one woman for Adam?

not sure the point. It is obvious that all over other women came from Eve. this point is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that almost every righteous man that lived after Adam had multiple wives and God never said anything to them about this practice

 

[Pegg]

not sure the point. It is obvious that all over other women came from Eve. this point is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that almost every righteous man that lived after Adam had multiple wives and God never said anything to them about this practice

Abraham only had one wife... Sarah. It was only after she died that he took another.

Noah only had one wife... he never married any others.

To the kings of Isreal, God laid this command in the mosaic law: Deut 17:17 "he should not multiply wives for himself...'

Righteous people live by Gods righteousness because they recognise the righteousness of God. Let me ask you, as a man, would you be happy if your wife took another man for herself to be her husband so that she was not committed only to you?

 

[Pegg]

not sure the point. It is obvious that all over other women came from Eve. this point is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that almost every righteous man that lived after Adam had multiple wives and God never said anything to them about this practice

you know, the first man to take two wives was one of the sons of evil Cain... Lamech was also a murder and he was the first recorded man to have taken two wives:

Genesis 4:17 Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife,+ and she became pregnant and gave birth to E′noch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son E′noch. 18 Later I′rad was born to E′noch. And I′rad became father to Me·hu′ja·el, and Me·hu′ja·el became father to Me·thu′sha·el, and Me·thu′sha·el became father to La′mech.

19 La′mech took two wives for himself. The name of the first was A′dah, and the name of the second was Zil′lah. 20 A′dah gave birth to Ja′bal. He was the founder of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Ju′bal. He was the founder of all those who play the harp and the pipe.*22 Also, Zil′lah gave birth to Tu′bal-cain, who forged every sort of tool of copper and iron. And the sister of Tu′bal-cain was Na′a·mah. 23 Then La′mech composed these words for his wives A′dah and Zil′lah:

“Hear my voice, you wives of La′mech;

Give ear to my saying:

A man I have killed for wounding me,

Yes, a young man for striking me.

24 If 7 times Cain is to be avenged,+

Then La′mech 77 times.”​

This man was not a righteous man. His poem indicates that he may have been a murderer many times over. Cain murdered his brother and for that one murder, he was to be avenged 7 times if someone killed him. But here we see Lamech saying that he himself should be avenged '77' times if someone kills him for all his murders.... this may indicate that he murdered more then once.

So really, polygamy originated with the wicked ones... not with God or his righteous servants.

 

[Simplelogic]

Maybe we should do another post on polygamy. I realize that my position will not be popular but I am willing to fully defend the practice in general. I personally am a man who has only one wife. I wouldn't be arguing my personal choice on that matter. Having multiple wives was a choice…not a command. A man could also choose to have one wife. I would argue that either choice is not a sin. It is a sin for a man to take a new wife and diminish the provisions of an existing wife. This much is clear in the Torah. There are also certain circumstances where men are required to take on an additional wife! This is when a mans brother dies, he is obligated to take his brothers wife to be his own, regardless of whether he has a wife already or not.

I will also argue that men are meant to "rule over" women. Not in a arrogant domineering way which is the way this practice is usually perceived. Women in the Torah and in the NT are said to "belong" to the man. The man does not belong to the women. YHVH also commended His men to keep and observe the bulk of His commandments. Many of which do not apply to females. Females were meant to be protected, loved and cared for by men.

It is the duty of man to keep the commandments of YHVH. It is the duty of women to serve and respect her man and help him to accomplish all that YHVH has requested him to do. This is generally how I believe women will be judged by our heavenly Father. I realize that most of this sounds crazy and barbaric but I am convinced that these simple principals are the key to true happiness for men as well as women! Let me know if you want to have a real discussion on this.

 

[Pegg]

Maybe we should do another post on polygamy. I realize that my position will not be popular but I am willing to fully defend the practice in general. I personally am a man who has only one wife. I wouldn't be arguing my personal choice on that matter. Having multiple wives was a choice…not a command. A man could also choose to have one wife. I would argue that either choice is not a sin. It is a sin for a man to take a new wife and diminish the provisions of an existing wife. This much is clear in the Torah. There are also certain circumstances where men are required to take on an additional wife! This is when a mans brother dies, he is obligated to take his brothers wife to be his own, regardless of whether he has a wife already or not.

I will also argue that men are meant to "rule over" women. Not in a arrogant domineering way which is the way this practice is usually perceived. Women in the Torah and in the NT are said to "belong" to the man. The man does not belong to the women. YHVH also commended His men to keep and observe the bulk of His commandments. Many of which do not apply to females. Females were meant to be protected, loved and cared for by men.

It is the duty of man to keep the commandments of YHVH. It is the duty of women to serve and respect her man and help him to accomplish all that YHVH has requested him to do. This is generally how I believe women will be judged by our heavenly Father. I realize that most of this sounds crazy and barbaric but I am convinced that these simple principals are the key to true happiness for men as well as women! Let me know if you want to have a real discussion on this.

Mostly i agree with what you've stated except for the polygamy part. Can you tell me why you think the mosaic law forbade the King of Isreal to practice polygamy? Do you have any idea why that law was there for the leader of the nation??

The thing about marriage, is that when God performed the first marriage, it was a 'pairing' of two people; Adam and Eve.
And they were considered to be 'one flesh' one person, one person separated into the masculine and feminine qualities of God.

Genesis 2:23 Then the man said:
“This is at last bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman,
Because from man she was taken.”+
24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to*his wife, and they will become one flesh.​

So this helps us understand why a married couple are said to be 'one flesh'... they are really one person and this, i guess, is why the mosaic law had this to say about a mans wife:

Leviticus 18:8 “‘The nakedness of your father’s wife you must not lay bare.+ It is your father’s nakedness.
16 “‘The nakedness of your brother’s wife+ you must not lay bare. It is your brother’s nakedness.​

So the wife is considered to be 'one flesh' with her husband. This means that he too is her flesh as the Christian scriptures point out:

1Cor 7:3 Let the husband render to [his] wife her due;+but let the wife also do likewise to [her] husband.+4 The wife does not exercise authority over her own body, but her husband does;+ likewise, also, the husband does not exercise authority over his own body, but his wife does​

If we really take Gods view on the matter, a husband and wife belong to 'each other' ....the husband is responsible to his wife just as much as a wife is responsible to her husband. And so if a husband brings another woman into their bed, then he is not really fulfilling his vow to his wife, or to God who created the marriage union...and this is where polygamy really fails and it tears apart that 'one flesh' union that God created.

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm not sure if this is the best forum to start this discussion. It is truly a topic in itself that will not be easily resolved, considering the cultural shock and emotional reactions it provokes. I will answer your question concerning king David and YHVH's command not to "multiply wives". This command was not speaking against a man's ability to take more than one wife. YHVH commands men to take on their brothers wives if they die. YHVH does not contradict His own word ever. This is in reference to a man who multiplies wives in a greedy way, or for selfish reasons. Solomon definitely broke this commandment...not David.

Lets look at the words of YHVH spoken through the prophet Samuel to David:

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says Yehovah God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 2 Samuel: 12:7-8

This passage clearly tells us that YHVH Himself gave David multiple wives. He even tells David that He would have given him more wives as well!!

9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12: 9

Notice that YHVH is angry with David for ONE reason. Breaking the Torah. Not for taking multiple wives. For people to suggest that this is now a sin is contrary to our heavenly Father's ways. We don't get to decide what sin is...He does. Nor does YHVH change or evolve.

I realize that there is much more to this discussion. I am also aware of the way Gen 2:23 is used to suggest monogamy was the original intent. Others use Yeshua's words to act like he was against the Father's commandments. This couldn't be further from the truth. Yeshua was perfectly Torah observant and he had to be in order to be an acceptable sacrifice. Polygamy was still being practiced in the first century and Yeshua NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE CONCEPT. Yeshua mentions Gen 2:23 because he is reiterating how much God hates divorce! Which He most certainly does.