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Paul was not a Roman Citizen.

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
That is indeed the problem we're presented with.

Again, yes, but help me to better appreciate why this absence of evidence should be deemed evidence of absence: Where in his letters do you find this lack of hint surprising?

I'm only now beginning to understand the extent to which that is deemed true. But, at the same time, folks like Scnnelle seem to argue for a middle ground when it comes to Acts. That something appears solely in in this work may leave it open to question, but it does not make it unquestionably false.

The point being raised by Professor van Minnen is that one might reasonably infer citizenship from an earlier section in Acts that intends no such thing. Or, as he puts it:
Perhaps the inference is wrong. Perhaps the author of Acts is masterful when it comes to character development. Or, perhaps van Minnen has recognized the next best thing to a statement in one of Paul's letters. I frankly don't know.

OK. On the other hand ...
  1. There's not even a starting point only if one assumes that Acts is virtually devoid of historical contribution.
  2. Evaluating the claim is not the same as arguing for it.

Read Paul's letters. He writes about personhood, as one being liberated from a previous legal status into one of freedom. He writes about being a slave in accordance to the law but given freedom in accordance to grace.

Sounds like he is writing about manumission.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sounds like he is writing about manumission.
I am aware of nothing by Paul that sounds that way to me, but I'm no expert on Paul. Would you mind offering specific references?

Also, note van Minnen: "Because it is claimed that Paul was born a Roman citizen he cannot have been a freedman himself but rather a descendant of one."
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
A rather interesting argument was offered by Peter van Minnen (Paul the Roman Citizen: Journal for the Study of the New Testament 1995 17:43) based on his reading of Acts 6-8 relating to the stoning of Stephen, where 'Saul' makes a modest appearance in Acts 7:58.

Earlier (Acts 6:8,9) we read:
Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen [Libertinos - JS] (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen. [NIV]​
Van Minnen argues:
Among the places of origin of the witnesses we find Cyrene,Alexandria, Cilicia and Asia. Cilicia stands for Tarsus, Paul’s home town. From this we can infer a simple but convincing reason why the itnesses ask Paul to keep an eye on their clothes: they must have known him personally. It has indeed been suspected before that Paul attended the meetings of the synagogue of Acts 6.9 because he was a Cilician himself. The author of Acts does not tell us so explicitly, but in my view the data he has supplied are quite sufficient to warrant the inference. It is even likely that Paul was present at the meeting where Stephen addressed the synagogue and some of those in attendance raised their accusations of blasphemy against him. Again the author of Acts does not tell us so, but this Leerstelle in the narrative can easily be supplied. Because Stephen was a Hellenist as Acts 6.1-6 makes clear, it made sense to him to address this particular synagogue. No Cyrenian, Alexandrian, Cilician or Asian Jew could be mistaken for anything but a Hellenist. Paul too was such a Hellenist.​
He then continues:
A final detail that should be addressed is the name of the synagogue. Libertini are freedmen of Roman citizens-not just any freedmen, as the use of the Latin word makes clear. The implication is that what united the Cyrenian, Alexandrian, Cilician and Asian Jews in attendance at this particular synagogue was the fact that they were all former slaves of Roman owners-or descendants of such people, because the original founders may have died in the course of years. It may not be very useful to speculate on the identity of these freedmen here. I know of only one time before AD 70 when Jews were enslaved by the Romans in good numbers, in the wake of Pompey’s conquest of Palestine in 63 BC, but Jewish communities elsewhere must have suffered likewise during Roman conquests in the East (Cilicia, e.g., preceded in 67 BC). If these Jews survived they were subsequently manumitted by their individual owners in the 50s and 40s of the first century BC in accordance with Roman social praxis. They and the children born after their manumission remained a distinct group within the Jewish community no matter where they were dispersed. Whenever they were in Jerusalem they fostered their peculiar identity by meeting at a synagogue of their own. At the dramatic date of Stephen’s ritual stoning, in the 30s of the first century AD, most of those in attendance in Jerusalem must have been grandsons of the original freedmen rather than freedmen themselves. Paul too was the grandson of such a freedman.

Finally I turn to the original aim of my paper, viz. to argue for Paul’s Roman citizenship. If Paul attended the synagogue of the Libertini in Jerusalem-which now seems most likely-and if he therefore was the descendant of a freedman himself, he must have been a Roman citizen because upon manumission former slaves of Roman citizens were granted Roman citizenship on the same footing as their former owners, including the right to carry their owner’s gentilicium and to pass their citizenship on to their descendants. Because it is claimed that Paul was born a Roman citizen he cannot have been a freedman himself but rather a descendant of one. Nowhere in Acts 6 and 7 does the author make the connection between Paul and the Libertini explicit. This connection therefore cannot have been invented by the author and a fortiori it cannot be part of his alleged invention of Paul’s Roman citizenship. On the contrary, it independently confirms Paul’s Roman citizenship.​
This is clearly not definitive, but it certainly strikes me as worthy of considersation.
I believe I actually started reading this paper about a week back, but never got threw it. Minnen does make some interesting claims, and appears to back them up. This one though, I really think is just weak, and really based on a big if.

The biggest problem I see with this claim is that it relies on a passage that Paul seems to contradict in his own letters. The trial and stoning of Stephen occurs in Jerusalem. According to Minnen's argument, the people there knew Paul. Paul supposedly went to a synagogue in Jerusalem as well. The problem though is that Paul states in his own letters, that he was unknown to the churches in Judea. Instead, it seems as if Paul probably spent most of his time in Damascus. This is all taken from Galatians 1.

If Paul truly was part of a synagogue in Jerusalem, and was involved in this stoning of Stephen (even in just a minor way), and was known by so many there, it is highly unlikely that he could also claim that Paul was unknown to the churches in Judea.

Minnen also draws an undeserved connection between the Synagogue of the Freedmen and the other groups listed. Minnen makes the claim that the Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia were also somehow apart of the Synagogue of the Freedman; however, the passage does not state that. Instead, it seems that several groups were actually involved, and were distinct groups. So to lump them all together is just incorrect, and that is what Minnen does.

Finally, the story of Stephen seems to be modeled after the death of Jesus. This brings doubt about the narrative as well. It appears that most of it, if not all, was fabricated. I would assume that there was probably an individual named Stephen, who was known as one of the first martyrs, but I don't think the story as told in Acts has any accuracy (besides him being stoned).

So the entire passage that Minnen is using seems to suffer from some major problems. First, it appears to be probably a fabricated story (and we can even see it being modeled after the story of Jesus). Paul seems to contradict key points (as he states he was unknown to the churches in Judea, and instead implies that he was in Damascus instead). And then Minnen, for some reason, makes the claim that Paul, being a Cilician, would have been in attendance at the Synagogue of the Freedmen, even though there is no real reason to make that claim. The Synagogue of the Freemen seems to be composed of former Jewish slaves from Rome. It really is not connected to Cilicia. So he is making a leap there.

Then as A_E states, the authenticity of Acts is severely questioned anyway. As I mentioned in the OP, many scholars do not think one can use Acts, at least in regard to Paul, unless Paul also supports this. Especially in the last decade, this appears to be the view that really is taking hold. And this passage is a prime example of why. It simply does not appear to be historically authentic, and Paul seems to contradict it.

I also agree with A_E that it is possible that Paul was a Roman citizen. However, as he also stated, there just is no evidence. So it appears that Paul probably was not a Roman citizen. The probability of such is low. And I would argue that even, in the slim chance he was, it was a point that meant absolutely nothing.

Paul always identifies as a Jew, and while growing up, a pious Jew (which really suggests that if Paul was a Roman citizen, it meant nothing to him. This is also another problem with Acts. Acts states that Paul was taught under Gamaliel. Yet, Paul, in his letters, never makes a claim. Which, if Paul is correct, it is extremely curious why Paul wouldn't mention it himself, especially since Paul does put an emphasis on his background). Paul never suggests that he is a Roman citizen, and doesn't even mention it in context of being beaten by the rod (which would have occurred somewhere in the Roman empire, and was a punishment conducted by Romans), which would have been an ideal way to show that he was fully committed to the movement, as in, he was rejecting his Roman citizenship, or the like. He also never mentions it in regard to his background.

So really, on the slim chance that he was a Roman citizen, he seems to reject such an identity anyway.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Read Paul's letters. He writes about personhood, as one being liberated from a previous legal status into one of freedom. He writes about being a slave in accordance to the law but given freedom in accordance to grace.

Sounds like he is writing about manumission.
It hardly sounds like manumission when actually put into context. He was talking about the Law. As in, the Hebrew Law. This faith in Christ, as Paul actually talks about quite a bit, frees one from the yoke of the Law. When Paul talks about the Law, he is talking about the Hebrew Law. Which is really much too complicated for this discussion here, and would need a thread on it's own.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I am aware of nothing by Paul that sounds that way to me, but I'm no expert on Paul. Would you mind offering specific references?

Also, note van Minnen: "Because it is claimed that Paul was born a Roman citizen he cannot have been a freedman himself but rather a descendant of one."

It's throughout all his writings, especially those on law and grace. He talks of being a slave unto sin and the law then being adopted by a lord and made a full heir unto freedom, no longer a slave but being made a freedman by grace.

That's pretty much Pauline Christianity in a nutshell.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I also agree with A_E that it is possible that Paul was a Roman citizen. However, as he also stated, there just is no evidence. So it appears that Paul probably was not a Roman citizen.
I do not understand this logic.

I do, however, appreciate your lengthy response. Unfortunately, I'm leaving now and will be attending services this evening, so it may be some time befor I can give it the thought it deserves. Thanks again.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The biggest problem I see with this claim is that it relies on a passage that Paul seems to contradict in his own letters. The trial and stoning of Stephen occurs in Jerusalem. According to Minnen's argument, the people there knew Paul. Paul supposedly went to a synagogue in Jerusalem as well. The problem though is that Paul states in his own letters, that he was unknown to the churches in Judea. Instead, it seems as if Paul probably spent most of his time in Damascus. This is all taken from Galatians 1.

poor arguement


he was head hunting sect memebers at that point. OF course he would be unknown
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing I'm curious about is: if Paul wasn't a Roman citizen, why would Acts say he was?

What I mean is: if you go with an early date of composition for Acts---immediately after or even during Paul's ministry---it seems unlikely that the author would have added such a significant detail.

If we go with a later date, it seems unlikely that the author would have introduced a new detail into a tradition that was probably already well known.

So it seems like, even going by a later date of composition, the idea that Paul was a Roman citizen would have already been an accepted part of his story. If so, and if in actuality he wasn't a Roman citizen, where would the idea have come from, and why?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It's throughout all his writings, especially those on law and grace. He talks of being a slave unto sin and the law then being adopted by a lord and made a full heir unto freedom, no longer a slave but being made a freedman by grace.

That's pretty much Pauline Christianity in a nutshell.
Again: Would you mind offering specific references?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
One thing I'm curious about is: if Paul wasn't a Roman citizen, why would Acts say he was?

What I mean is: if you go with an early date of composition for Acts---immediately after or even during Paul's ministry---it seems unlikely that the author would have added such a significant detail.

If we go with a later date, it seems unlikely that the author would have introduced a new detail into a tradition that was probably already well known.

So it seems like, even going by a later date of composition, the idea that Paul was a Roman citizen would have already been an accepted part of his story. If so, and if in actuality he wasn't a Roman citizen, where would the idea have come from, and why?


Ive asked this more then once, I dont suspect you'll get a decent answer
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
One thing I'm curious about is: if Paul wasn't a Roman citizen, why would Acts say he was?

What I mean is: if you go with an early date of composition for Acts---immediately after or even during Paul's ministry---it seems unlikely that the author would have added such a significant detail.

If we go with a later date, it seems unlikely that the author would have introduced a new detail into a tradition that was probably already well known.

So it seems like, even going by a later date of composition, the idea that Paul was a Roman citizen would have already been an accepted part of his story. If so, and if in actuality he wasn't a Roman citizen, where would the idea have come from, and why?

I agree. Why include it?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Should we treat the gospels the same way we're treating this passage in Acts? Yeshua, that we know of, never wrote anything but to some degree the gospels are trust in order to paint some sort of picture of Yeshua (the man). So far I haven't really seen anything that suggest Pauld ("wasn't") a Roman citizen..
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Should we treat the gospels the same way we're treating this passage in Acts? Yeshua, that we know of, never wrote anything but to some degree the gospels are trust in order to paint some sort of picture of Yeshua (the man). So far I haven't really seen anything that suggest Pauld ("wasn't") a Roman citizen..

I agree if we are to dismiss Acts then we have to dismiss the Gospels too.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Being set freed from slavery is called what again?
Paul wasn't set free from slavery, or at least not a physical form of slavery. If you read Paul, and the various scholars who deal with Paul, it is more of a religious slavery, at most, that Paul is talking about. When he refers to the Law, he refers to the Jewish Law.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I agree if we are to dismiss Acts then we have to dismiss the Gospels too.
Actually I think that is pretty much the argument coming from fb. He uses the letters to find a "historical" jesus and throws out even the gospels so may as well throw out lukes account in Acts.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Should we treat the gospels the same way we're treating this passage in Acts? Yeshua, that we know of, never wrote anything but to some degree the gospels are trust in order to paint some sort of picture of Yeshua (the man). So far I haven't really seen anything that suggest Pauld ("wasn't") a Roman citizen..
Most scholars do tree the Gospels in a similar manner (not the same way though, as Paul is a first hand account, who wrote stuff himself. There is none of that for Jesus).

Much of the Gospels are thrown out as being unreliable for a number of reasons, just like this passage is being thrown out of Acts. The big difference though is that for Paul, we have a first hand account. So we have something more solid to compare Acts to. There are also only two sources here that have to be compared, Paul and Acts.

The Gospels are more complicated, but treated in a same general manner. And whole sections are thrown out. Such as the birth narratives. Many scholars even thrown out John completely.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Paul wasn't set free from slavery, or at least not a physical form of slavery. If you read Paul, and the various scholars who deal with Paul, it is more of a religious slavery, at most, that Paul is talking about. When he refers to the Law, he refers to the Jewish Law.

So now you are stating that not only was Paul a non-citizen but he was antinominian?

No. He was talking about being a slave to sin, and in an act of manumission a person is set free from sin by the Lord.
 
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