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Paul was not a Roman Citizen.

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I do not agree. Tell me, specifically, what "bit of research" has popped up in the last few hundred years that invalidates, or even calls into question, one of Gibbons' factual conclusions?

His treatment of both paganism and christianity involves numerous misconceptions about both, not to mention the interactions between the two. His sources were literary and his use of them to reconstruct roman history was quite limited and lacked the nuance even of other (later) armchair historians. His work is of great value almost entirely because of his superb prose and because of his magesterial treatment of his subject compared to others of his day. The reason for the decline and fall of the roman empire (and what exactly this means or whether it is appropriate to speak of such things at all) is not something upon which historians agree.

And what, specifically, are these "refinement of historical methods since 1776"?

Archaeology, modern historiography, epigraphy, modern textual criticism, literary theory, sociology, etc.
 
His treatment of both paganism and christianity involves numerous misconceptions about both, not to mention the interactions between the two.

Easy to make general assertions. To provide a specific example, more difficult.

His sources were literary and his use of them to reconstruct roman history was quite limited and lacked the nuance even of other (later) armchair historians.

So he should not have used "literary" sources? What was he supposed to do, not read books?

Limited? How? Lacks the nuance of other historians? In what way? What other historians? More un-backed general assertions.

His work is of great value almost entirely because of his superb prose and because of his magesterial treatment of his subject compared to others of his day.

So now, the fact that he has superb prose is to be taken against him. Only historians who are boring can be accurate? The fact that he was better than his contemporaries is now a black mark?

The reason for the decline and fall of the roman empire (and what exactly this means or whether it is appropriate to speak of such things at all) is not something upon which historians agree.

There is no Roman empire today. So at some point, there must have been a decline and fall. Maybe God just miracled it away?

If I wanted to understand this subject, I think Gibbon might be a good place to start.

Archaeology, modern historiography, epigraphy, modern textual criticism, literary theory, sociology, etc.

Name me one discovery, from any of these fields, that invalidates a single finding of Gibbon.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Easy to make general assertions. To provide a specific example, more difficult.

You are right. It is more difficult. Because you stated
This material invalidates the conclusions of Gibbon? Prove it.

What conclusions are you talking about? Just stating "find errors in Gibbon" or something like that is just to vast of an undertaking and (I suspect) would be met with something like "but that doesn't invalidate his conclusions." So if you want me to demonstrate how modern historians or modern historical evidence do not support Gibbon's conclusions, I'll need you to be more specific about what you mean by conclusions. After all, I can simplistically summarize Gibbon's conclusion in a sentence, but to reduce so many volumes to a sentence is too problematic. Given his prose, the genre of history in his day, his purposes, etc., what his conclusions are can be anything from "christianity was mainly the cause of the fall of the roman empire" to a statement about imperialism and economics relevant to Gibbon's day and support for the work/thought of his friend Adam Smith (Wealth of Nations).


So he should not have used "literary" sources? What was he supposed to do, not read books?

No, it's just that we are talking about an era prior to archaeology. Have you studied the history of historiography at all? By that I mean the invention and development of history as first a genre and then a discipline (perhaps even a social science)? Western historiography developed mainly from the work of the Greek historians, beginning in particular with Herodotus (who, in his opening line, almost invented the term "history" by using the word ἱστορίᾳ/historia in a way that forever connected it to a depiction/reconstruction of the past). However, these historians relied a great deal on myth, rumor, reports, and similar evidence. More importantly, the genre never really fully seperated itself from story-telling. The idea was not just to say what happened, but to tell a story about the past with relevance to the now. This practice continued into Gibbbon's day. His history is almost as much an account of his own time and an argument concerning the proper economic and political system as it is a work of history.

It's not that he used literary sources which is a major issue, but that this was all he had: the historical narrative stories of the ancient historians which he used (along with then-modern economic, political, and philosophical thought) to tell a story about the eventual fall about a singular roman civilization, a singular christianity, and a singular paganism when none really existed.


So now, the fact that he has superb prose is to be taken against him. Only historians who are boring can be accurate? The fact that he was better than his contemporaries is now a black mark?

Not at all. The question is whether or not people today read his work because it remains an accurate historical reconstruction, or because it was unsurpassed in its day and incredibly influential for future scholarship. I read Gibbon for the same reason I read his friend Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Strauss' Das Leben Jesu, Bachofen's Das Mutterrecht Frazer's Golden Bough, and many others: they were extremely influential, either in how they affected/shaped later scholarship, or popular thought, or both. Your average ancient historian or classicist will at least be well aware of Gibbon's work and probably have read much of it. Yet unless they are seriously interested in Socrates, they are quite unlikely to have read Garnier's paper "Caractére de la Philosophie de Socrate" (1768). Why? Not because Gibbon's monumental work is more accurate (it's actually quite less, but that's just because Garnier's scope was far more limited), but because the former was just an early work among many concerning the historical Socrates, and was soon overshadowed by other authors (e.g., Hegel and Schleiermacher) whereas there is no equivalent (in terms of scope and breadth) to Gibbon. However, for the period leading up to Constantine Fox's Pagans and Christians is far more careful and nuanced, while works like Bowerstock's Hellenism in Late Antiquity or Huttons The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles are much better depictions of paganism during and after Constantine. In other words, all the topics touched on in Gibbon's work have been treated more fully in plenty of other works, but historians no longer seek to do what Gibbon did: tell a story of the past and present at the same time (popular works are sometimes an exception). Instead, we have entire monographs on pieces of texts or an inscription not available in Gibbon's time which deal with some aspect Gibbon merely treated in passing.



There is no Roman empire today. So at some point, there must have been a decline and fall. Maybe God just miracled it away?

But to what extent did it continue into the so-called Holy Roman Empire? And when was this decline? Gibbon's reliance on roman literature meant the use of sources which talked about "the good ol' days" and lamented the changes they saw as a decline, but thanks to epigraphy, archeology, sociology, papyri, etc., we now have a better view of the economic state of a given city or region than we would from people like Tacitus or Seutonius. Gibbon writes as if there was a singular Roman civilization which grew and then at a specific point began to decline, eventually to fail utterly. In reality, the very idea of such a situation is seriously misleading, and it both grew and shrank in size at different points, and fluctuated economically in a quite dynamic way. Nor was there ever a "paganism" the way their was a "christianity" (which, despite various sectarian movements or theological differences, had a "christ" at the core), nor was the relationship between christianity, rome, and paganism clear-cut (Christianity borrowed from paganism, and "religions" like the mystery cults were heavily influenced by christianity). The christians destroyed pagan art and places of worship, but contrary to a view still held today, this persecution didn't involve killing. In fact, as christianity spread, they stopped (for example) the pagan execution of witches. They limited thought through the oppression and suppression of other ideologies, but at the same time borrowed from these and tied them into religion, opening up new avenues.

If I wanted to understand this subject, I think Gibbon might be a good place to start.

If you want to understand what Roman society looked like, or what early Christianity looked like, or religion during the roman empire, or how the Roman empire lost lands, power, and eventually "Rome", then no. It isn't. Not just because it is outdated, but because it is enormous. There are far more accurate works which are far shorter. Starting with Gibbon to understand the Roman Empire is like starting with Reimarus to understand the historical Jesus. You're just reinventing the wheel.
 
This is exactly what I'm looking for:

...Adam Smith's Wealth of Nation, Strauss' Das Leben Jesu, Bachofen's Das Mutterrecht, Frazer's Golden Bough... Socrates... Garnier's paper "Caractére de la Philosophie de Socrate" (1768)... Hegel and Schleiermacher... Constantine Fox's Pagans and Christians... Bowerstock's Hellenism in Late Antiquity, or Huttons The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles...

I am even familiar with some of this material. Allow me to consider your arguments and compose an appropriate response at my leisure; something proportional to your own detailed and thoughtful response.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
No, Gibbon is not a good place to start. It should be common sense to choose a later scholar and work your way back.

It's not our responsibility to catch you up on more than two centuries of historical methodology, archaeology, textual criticism, and the many other disciplines that have been discovered since Gibbon. A lot happens in just ten years in any given discipline of Roman scholarship, or even a season of archaeological work.

Scholars are not sitting around building on Gibbon's work. He is a relic, and if anything, a wonderful example of how NOT to do history.

The biggest problem with Gibbons is that while he uses many ancient literary works (as I do), his theories go far beyond his evidence. He did not have any of the modern tools or theories of historicity, so he filled in the holes with fantasy. He is entertaining. But for a serious understanding of the time period, you need a source that uses recent research.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, Gibbon is not a good place to start. It should be common sense to choose a later scholar and work your way back.

It's not our responsibility to catch you up on more than two centuries of historical methodology, archaeology, textual criticism, and the many other disciplines that have been discovered since Gibbon. A lot happens in just ten years in any given discipline of Roman scholarship, or even a season of archaeological work.

Scholars are not sitting around building on Gibbon's work. He is a relic, and if anything, a wonderful example of how NOT to do history.

The biggest problem with Gibbons is that while he uses many ancient literary works (as I do), his theories go far beyond his evidence. He did not have any of the modern tools or theories of historicity, so he filled in the holes with fantasy. He is entertaining. But for a serious understanding of the time period, you need a source that uses recent research.


I love looking at older work as well

it gives me a foundation on what methods have failed and or what methods are incomplete.


after a while you start to see who is really making sense and who and who not to follow.

The one positive thing is, within these pages of older work, there are gold nuggets to be found. doesnt mean you should buy the whole mine.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
But to what extent did it continue into the so-called Holy Roman Empire? And when was this decline?

Come on, man.

The "Holy Roman Empire" has nothing to do with Gibbons or the question at hand.

The "Holy Roman Empire" was German and was from 962 CE to 1806 CE.

Your missing your history by giant swaths.

Gibbons - 1776 ..... 239 years of scholarship since then. Considered authoritative by no one.

Roman Empire - 27 BCE - 476 CE. "Holy Roman Empire" arrives more than 500 years later.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I love looking at older work as well

it gives me a foundation on what methods have failed and or what methods are incomplete.


after a while you start to see who is really making sense and who and who not to follow.

The one positive thing is, within these pages of older work, there are gold nuggets to be found. doesnt mean you should buy the whole mine.

Yeah, I agree. I actually like to read Gibbons.

But touting a 200+ year old work as authoritative is just silly.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Yeah, I agree. I actually like to read Gibbons.

But touting a 200+ year old work as authoritative is just silly.

I agree.

There some hundred year old work on the OT by HERMANN GUNKEL I find complete and facinating and most of it is very solid work. But then again Its hard for me to stand 100% behind any one mans work.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I agree.

There some hundred year old work on the OT by HERMANN GUNKEL I find complete and facinating and most of it is very solid work. But then again Its hard for me to stand 100% behind any one mans work.

Yes, Gunkel is a good read as well.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Come on, man.

The "Holy Roman Empire" has nothing to do with Gibbons or the question at hand.



The "Holy Roman Empire" was German and was from 962 CE to 1806 CE.
"Neither roman nor holy" I know. The point is (see Pockock's Barbarism and Religion on this one), when does this "fall" occur? With the east and west split? When the west was overtaken by Germanic tribes? When the East was finally completely overtaken (during the time of the Holy Roman Empire)? And Gibbon's Decline and Fall continues long after 472.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
"Neither roman nor holy" I know. The point is (see Pockock's Barbarism and Religion on this one), when does this "fall" occur? With the east and west split? When the west was overtaken by Germanic tribes? When the East was finally completely overtaken (during the time of the Holy Roman Empire)? And Gibbon's Decline and Fall continues long after 472.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought that I was responding to the Pragmatist. haha

EDIT: Context is everything. I withdraw my comment.
 
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Not only can we provide examples, they have been common knowledge for decades.

Before you make silly demands like this, you should at least take a cursory look around.

I'm not very impressed by the wiki link you provided.

It is basically a series of descriptions of various theories of the decline and fall. They are categorized under four heads. I.Decay owing to general malaise, II.Monocausal decay, III.Catastrophic collapse, IV.Transformation.

I.This includes Gibbon; Vegetius; Arnold J. Toynbee and James Burke; Michael Rostovtzeff, Ludwig von Mises, and Bruce Bartlett; Joseph Tainter; Adrian Goldsworthy. A very impressive list of thinkers. To make your mental picture of this subject as complete and accurate as possible, you would have to study every one of these authors.

But not a single one invalidates Gibbon. There may be differences of emphasis; these authors fill out the picture, they flesh out the details, but they do not paint an entirely different picture.

For example, Toynbee and Burke, and their idea "that the Roman Empire itself was a rotten system from its inception, and that the entire Imperial era was one of steady decay of institutions founded in Republican times." I certainly can believe that a process like this was at work.

But at the same time, there could be a parallel process, such as "a loss of civic virtue among the Roman citizens, in which they gradually entrusted the role of defending the Empire to barbarian mercenaries who eventually turned on them, with Christianity contributing to this shift by making the populace less interested in the worldly here-and-now, because it was willing to wait for the rewards of heaven." That is how Gibbon's idea is described, and I honestly do not understand how these ideas conflict. In fact, they harmonize with each other.

You do realize there is nothing new in the idea described as originating from Toynbee and Burke? It sounds a lot like the republican ideology of Machiavelli. Of course, we have to discard him, because his books are even older than Gibbon's (you guys are so prejudiced). But I have to point out that Machiavelli says very similar things, how Rome was doomed by the loss of republican virtues, the centuries of corruption, and so on.

And all of this compliments Gibbon. I see Christianity as a by-product of a dying society, the dream of a once free republic, who became a victim of her own military successes, and the strange gods from foreign lands that came with these conquests (strange gods like Jesus). Now enslaved to an emperor of their own making, these humiliated people dreamed of a spiritual freedom that they could no longer enjoy on the plane of reality. Jesus was the avatar of this dream, and Paul was his prophet.

II.Disease... Environmental degradation... Lead poisoning. Various theories are described under this heading. I think we can dismiss the theory of "monocausal decay" out of hand. Of course, the authors who study these specific physical factors, like environmental degradation, they have to be read. All such physical factors are critical to a more complete understanding, but they are not the end of the story.

The way I see it, every society faces certain challenges, threats, or limitations of a physical nature. A vigorous society, like a free republic, will find a way to overcome these obstacles. Imperial Rome, weakened by a preoccupation with the other world (caused by a religion that they themselves created), just lost the energy to keep going.

Man uses certain physical techniques to help him overcome the perils of nature, and once Christianity became established, the knowledge of these techniques fell into decline. The civil engineering of the Romans was very advanced, and to support this fact I draw your attention to the aqueduct, which I've heard still functions to this day. But in the middle ages, people could barely feed themselves, let alone remove their own waste according to the proper methods or get consistently sanitary water. It's as if they lost interest in the physical plane of reality. I wonder why?

III.J. B. Bury; Peter Heather; Bryan Ward-Perkins.

Once again, I do not see how this theory of "catastrophic collapse" contradicts Gibbon in any way. Of course natural catastrophes contributed to the fall, and Gibbon is explicit about this. At one point, he tries to calculate the death toll of a particularly brutal cycle of famine, disease, and war in Gaul, I think; his estimate is one third to one fourth of the population.

If Gibbon made an assertion like this, and he was wrong in a significant way (say it was more like one twentieth or less), then I would be more willing to lend you ear. As it is, I am beginning to suspect that there is some ulterior motive, or some hidden prejudice, behind your rejection of Gibbon.

By the way, the factual accuracy of Gibbon seems to be supported by your own wiki source: "J.B. Bury's main difference from Gibbon lay in his interpretation of facts, rather than disputing any facts." In other words, he does not dispute Gibbon's facts, because his facts are accurate.

But apparently, you guys know better than J.B. Bury. You can't cite any specific facts to convince me of your superior knowledge, so I am inclined to think this arrogant sense of superiority is due to reflexive prejudice.

IV.Henri Pirenne; Lucien Musset; Peter Brown.

There is certainly an element of truth to this "transformation" hypothesis. What often appears as a short, sharp shock, sometimes appears from a more detached perspective to be a gradual continuity. Once again, this is nothing but a slight elaboration of emphasis.

* * *

In conclusion, I have come to detect a hidden prejudice behind your rejection of Gibbon. No specific mistakes of Gibbon are cited. I increasingly get the feeling that you reject Gibbon, not because of some flaw in his method, but because you disagree with his conclusions. If his conclusions were more in line with your preconceived beliefs, then you would be more forgiving.

2 + 2 = 4. This fact is true, has always been true, and will always be true. It is true in the year of our lord 2012, just as it was true in 1776.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
But not a single one invalidates Gibbon.

2 + 2 = 4. This fact is true, has always been true, and will always be true. It is true in the year of our lord 2012, just as it was true in 1776.

There are people out there like this, Jay.

Wow.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I though he handled the math rather well. The application is sloppy but at least the foundation is firm. If he were only a bit less verbose.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I though he handled the math rather well. The application is sloppy but at least the foundation is firm. If he were only a bit less verbose.

:biglaugh:

If only historical interpretation were as relatively objective as mathematics.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
By the way, I assume you've seen Pearse on 'Eusebius the Liar'. I first read it many years ago and - having been a bit of an Eusebius basher at the time - found it more than a little interesting.
 
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