Paul's definition of atonement?

[Tichan]

How far along was did Paul come after Jesus' death?

What if Jesus didn't really die, and his ressurection was purely physical. And he lived out his days moving secretly about, and spreading his beliefs through his apostles. I would wager to say it wouldn't be that hard to go unnoticed during that time period.

What if Paul met the "ressurected" Jesus and thus his change in philosophy towards Christians?

No actual evidence for this claim. But when I think of of stories about what really happen with Jesus, I alway come to the question of what you do when you don't want to get caught doing something bad, you get rid of the evidence right?

So what would you do if you formed a false religion around a real person in order to unite religious beliefs under your control. Then I think how much could you cover up with more than 1000 years of almost absolute power. Where you had the power to kill people who spoke, or had records of the truth about this persons true life. Then I think about how most people couldn't write, so oral records of the truth would be the most common. Then I think about how much things change through a 10 person telephone game. How much could they change over a 2000 year telphone game, where you ran the risk of dying if you tried to speak or distribute the truth (a very dangerous telephone game lol).

Between 30 ad and 50 ad Paul had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.
He becomes converted to the Nazarene sect

Between 50 to 66 James the brother of Jesus becomes the leader of the Nazarene Jewish Jesus Sect. Strife between the two of them. Paul founds Christianity with his Epistles. These Epistles are probably the first christian writings.
He was executed around 67 ad.

Way after Paul's death 85 to 90 ad Luke writes the third Gospel in Antioch
90 to 110 Luke writes the Acts of the Apostles

At that time Jews expel Christians from their synagogue
Pauline Christians expel the Nazarene Christians from their churches.
60 years after Jesus death and resurrection there was a lot of strife and confrontation with these two groups

 

[sojourner]

How far along was did Paul come after Jesus' death?

Probably less than 18 months.

So what would you do if you formed a false religion around a real person in order to unite religious beliefs under your control. Then I think how much could you cover up with more than 1000 years of almost absolute power. Where you had the power to kill people who spoke, or had records of the truth about this persons true life. Then I think about how most people couldn't write, so oral records of the truth would be the most common. Then I think about how much things change through a 10 person telephone game. How much could they change over a 2000 year telphone game, where you ran the risk of dying if you tried to speak or distribute the truth (a very dangerous telephone game lol).

Not buying it. This isn't Area 51 or the Illuminati. Sorry.

 

[sojourner]

Paul decreed the apostolicism title by and upon himself.

Yet, he corresponded with the apostles in Jerusalem, and worked with them. They did accept him.

Furthermore there is no hint of reconciliation between Paul and the Jewish Christians either in the rest of Galatians or in his later epistles. Thus we have every reason to believe that the conflict between Paul and the Jewish Christians headed by James was a lasting one.

Yet, they did accede his point that people didn't have to be Jewish to be Xtian.

In fact the Jerusalem church hounded his mission and there is compelling evident that the Paul’s opponents in Galatia, Corinth and Philippi were Jewish Christian emissaries sent by the Jerusalem Church headed by James, Peter and John.

They weren't Jews -- they were Judaizers. This is a specific term referring to Gentiles that acted like Jews. The inference was that they "talked the talk" but didn't have a clue as to how to "walk the walk."

However the collection was rejected by James and the Jerusalem Church and were perhaps somehow responsible for Paul's arrest. They certainly did nothing to help him.

They didn't do much to prevent Stephen's martyrdom, either.

The point I made earlier applies here:
This isn't the Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

 

[nash8]

Probably less than 18 months.

Not buying it. This isn't Area 51 or the Illuminati. Sorry.

I'm not saying you have to, its simply one of my many assumptions based my general view on human nature and the Roman Catholic church, especially the early Roman Catholic Church.

As for Area 51 and the Illuminati, they are both very real my freind. Might they have been exaggerated, of course, but the Illuminati was a "Secret Society" and Area 51 is a "Top Secret" military facility. That means they didn't want people to know what they were doing. Thus they would not purposely, publicly disclose information about what they were doing.

Supposing area 51 did have some sort of "alien" technology. How would this information get out? Do you think the people working within the facility would risk their freedom to expose the "truth"? Do you honestly think government officials would let David Icke or Jessie Ventura into their facilities to obtain "credible evidence" of this alien technology? Do you have so much trust in the U.S. government that you believe they would never purposely decieve the public? The U.S. government has conducted mind control experiments on unknowing U.S. citizens, and knowing this you can honestly trust them enough to reveal undisputable evidence of some of the most life altering knowledge of mankind, indisputable proof of life on other planets?

Adam Weishaupt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

Area 51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not trying to argue whether any of my theories are true or not. What I am saying is that if someone is trying to hide something they are not just going to let indisputable evidence show up. They are going to do everything in their power to withhold this evidence from the public. And the Roman Catholic Church and the U.S. government are probably 2 of the most powerful institutions in all of human history. This is evidence by the fact that the Catholic church spent over 1000 year destroying evidence they deemed heretical, aka any information that opposed the story they had chosen tha best suited their needs.

 

[nash8]

Sorry that was way off topic, but pertains to a point I deem very relevant especially to all religious debate.

The assumption that those that hold knowledge want everyone else to hold knowledge as well. Knowledge is power, and I can safely assume that those with power do not inherently want those without power to gain it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Supposing area 51 did have some sort of "alien" technology. How would this information get out? Do you think the people working within the facility would risk their freedom to expose the "truth"?

Snowden

 

[sojourner]

I'm not saying you have to, its simply one of my many assumptions based my general view on human nature and the Roman Catholic church, especially the early Roman Catholic Church.

As for Area 51 and the Illuminati, they are both very real my freind. Might they have been exaggerated, of course, but the Illuminati was a "Secret Society" and Area 51 is a "Top Secret" military facility. That means they didn't want people to know what they were doing. Thus they would not purposely, publicly disclose information about what they were doing.

Supposing area 51 did have some sort of "alien" technology. How would this information get out? Do you think the people working within the facility would risk their freedom to expose the "truth"? Do you honestly think government officials would let David Icke or Jessie Ventura into their facilities to obtain "credible evidence" of this alien technology? Do you have so much trust in the U.S. government that you believe they would never purposely decieve the public? The U.S. government has conducted mind control experiments on unknowing U.S. citizens, and knowing this you can honestly trust them enough to reveal undisputable evidence of some of the most life altering knowledge of mankind, indisputable proof of life on other planets?

Adam Weishaupt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

Area 51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not trying to argue whether any of my theories are true or not. What I am saying is that if someone is trying to hide something they are not just going to let indisputable evidence show up. They are going to do everything in their power to withhold this evidence from the public. And the Roman Catholic Church and the U.S. government are probably 2 of the most powerful institutions in all of human history. This is evidence by the fact that the Catholic church spent over 1000 year destroying evidence they deemed heretical, aka any information that opposed the story they had chosen tha best suited their needs.

"Assumption." "My view." Of course there's an Area 51. You can see on Google maps. Of course there was a group called "illuminati." There's also a society called "Masons." But there's a difference between secret operations and conspiracy. One is necessary for security. The other feeds paranoia. One is sensible. The other other is ... not.

I've heard all kinds of crazy things about the Masons. None of it's true, though. I've heard that the moon landings were staged at Area 51. Not true, though. But when you start to buy into the paranoia, you're starting to build a house of cards that has little basis in reality.

 

[nash8]

Snowden

Yeah and look what happen to that guy for releasing information that was already in the public domain. He gave up his supposed life living with a beautiful gymnist in Hawaii to be on the run. Assuming all the stories about his previous life were true, I would say he was a straight dumb *** lol.

 

[nash8]

"Assumption." "My view." Of course there's an Area 51. You can see on Google maps. Of course there was a group called "illuminati." There's also a society called "Masons." But there's a difference between secret operations and conspiracy. One is necessary for security. The other feeds paranoia. One is sensible. The other other is ... not.

I've heard all kinds of crazy things about the Masons. None of it's true, though. I've heard that the moon landings were staged at Area 51. Not true, though. But when you start to buy into the paranoia, you're starting to build a house of cards that has little basis in reality.

You can't say that any of those stories are true or not. You can say there is not sufficient evidence to "prove" that any of those stories are true, but you are missing my whole point. If any of the claims about the masons, area 51, or the Illuminati were true, there would not be any evidence of it because the evidence would be suppressed.

Specifically speaking about the illuminati, all of the "conspiracy" theories about them accuse them of the opposite ideals that the original illuminati held dear. Specifically freedom of thought, speech, gender equality, etc etc.

It is my opinion that the illuminati are the "good guys", and the negative media given to them was initiated by the "bad guys".

I suppose you don't think HAARP has the potential to be used as a mind control device either?

 

[sojourner]

You can't say that any of those stories are true or not. You can say there is not sufficient evidence to "prove" that any of those stories are true, but you are missing my whole point. If any of the claims about the masons, area 51, or the Illuminati were true, there would not be any evidence of it because the evidence would be suppressed.

Specifically speaking about the illuminati, all of the "conspiracy" theories about them accuse them of the opposite ideals that the original illuminati held dear. Specifically freedom of thought, speech, gender equality, etc etc.

It is my opinion that the illuminati are the "good guys", and the negative media given to them was initiated by the "bad guys".

I suppose you don't think HAARP has the potential to be used as a mind control device either?

HAARP? Oh, dear God! :thud:

Next you'll be telling me you believe in mermaids.

 

[nash8]

HAARP? Oh, dear God! :thud:

Next you'll be telling me you believe in mermaids.

So are you saying that you don't believe HAARP exists, or you don't believe that it has the potential to alter wheather patterns, and influence thought patterns? Why was HAARP designed and built by a subsidiary of Raytheon, which is one the largest military corporations in the world. Do you honestly think that a military corporation is in it for the scientific research?

[youtube]GrpjdiY10no[/youtube]
The HAARP Conpiracy - Broadcasted by CBC-News ("On Demand") January 16, 1996 - YouTube

 

[sojourner]

So are you saying that you don't believe HAARP exists, or you don't believe that it has the potential to alter wheather patterns, and influence thought patterns? Why was HAARP designed and built by a subsidiary of Raytheon, which is one the largest military corporations in the world. Do you honestly think that a military corporation is in it for the scientific research?

[youtube]GrpjdiY10no[/youtube]
The HAARP Conpiracy - Broadcasted by CBC-News ("On Demand") January 16, 1996 - YouTube

Oh, HAARP exists, just as Area 51 exists. But do you see the big word splashed across the screen of the link? "Conspiracy! The only conspiracy is what the government starts to throw the gullible public off the track.

 

[nash8]

It's not like the U.S. government has a history of conducting mind control experiments on unknowing U.S. citizens or anything .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

It's not like the government "conspired" to overthrow the first democratically elected government in Iran, one that sought to nationalize the oil industry, and take control away from BP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

It's also not likey there is a big conspiracy were the governemnt is secretly spying on almost everyones internet usage.

Is a reference really necessary?

So what "track" are we being thrown off of exactly? What should we really be looking at?

 

[nash8]

Not to say that revealing small bits of information about certain projects does not throw the public off track from more pressing issues, such as lack of education funding, lack of political knowledge and responsibility, amongst countless other thing that I would deem more important on an immediate basis. But this in no way means that HAARP doesn't have the possibility to affect cognitive process.

1. HAARP creates massive electromagnetic fields.
2. Electromagnetic fields disrupt brain activity.

The only problem that I see is whether the ionosphere can be lowered to a degree where it would actually be in the altitude level of human interaction. And from what i've researched, they have the ability to alter the altitude of the ionosphere depending on the angle and power level in which the RF beam is shot into the ionosphere. I've also read research where they can actually direct the electromagnetic energy created by heating the ionosphere down towards the earth by shooting the RF beam in a spiraling approach by firing different arrays, at different power levels, in different frequencies.

HAARP - Alaska Conservation Foundation

 

[nash8]

And to that end, the Russian congress acutually filed a complaint against the HAARP project, that it violated the nuclear proliferation treaty, which states that no country will create a nuclear missile defense shield.

 

[sojourner]

None of this has anything to do with conspiracy theory. Does the gov't. spy? Of course they do! Waddo you think the CIA is for???

But HAARP isn't part of that for purposes of "mind control." The fields produced by HAARP aren't aimed at human brains.

 

[nash8]

None of this has anything to do with conspiracy theory. Does the gov't. spy? Of course they do! Waddo you think the CIA is for???

Agreed, but was the idea of the government spying on all U.S. citizens not once considered a "conspiracy"?

But HAARP isn't part of that for purposes of "mind control." The fields produced by HAARP aren't aimed at human brains.

But does it have the ability, in theory, to alter human cognitive function?

And if it doesn't have the ability to influence cognitive function, does it have any other military applications? If so what might they be?